Zero feedback is always an automatic discount (or price I'll pay) Things will always sell for more if the person has high, positive feedback.
Why do Martin Logans have such Lousy resale value and interest?
- Thread starter Mantana
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David Matz
Well-known member
You make my point. Mantana, you need to better price your risk.
Gordon
Well-known member
I always try to buy things in the "off" season. I bought my TR6 in the middle of January. Looked funny and froze my butt off during the test drive. Triumph heaters are non existant! Same car in May or June would fetch 2-3K more since that is when people want one.
I think the economy is putting a hurt to the "off" season buying. People are not going out and holding on to whatever cash they have. They are home listening to their systems and enjoying what they have. This should be the time to get a great deal on gear but unfortunately as you're finding, it is not unless the price is right.
Hang on to them if you can afford to. Don't give them away because things will get better if you can hold out.
My 2 cents.
Gordon
I think the economy is putting a hurt to the "off" season buying. People are not going out and holding on to whatever cash they have. They are home listening to their systems and enjoying what they have. This should be the time to get a great deal on gear but unfortunately as you're finding, it is not unless the price is right.
Hang on to them if you can afford to. Don't give them away because things will get better if you can hold out.
My 2 cents.
Gordon
Minorl
Member
Why do ML's have such Lousy resale value and interest?
You also have to understand that when manufacturers keep changing their products every few years that puts a definite lack of confidence in the stability and value of any product. Because reviewers rarely review older products (even if they are still produced) and want nothing but new products in their magazines, the audio manufacturers feel that they must constantly change and "upgrade" their products to keep in the news. This "upgrade" is a false premise. so, the value of previously used products go south quickly because the "next best" product will come shortly. Some people are in the amp of the month or speaker of the month club and have to "upgrade" every time something new comes out.
Find what you like that puts the music where you ultimately want it to be and enjoy. For me to get to the next level I would have to pay a lot more money and it just is not worth it. If I can find a pre-amp that is better than my Audio Research SP 11 that is remote controlled, and that I can aford, I will buy it. I'm looking at an Audio Research LS 17 or a LS 26 with a AR PH3 or 5 phono stage. But, if I don't get a very good price for them, I will stick with my very good SP 11 (retubed).
My my only problem with Martin Logan is that every year the old speakers are basically deemed obsolete by ML and new ones take their place. That is absolutely not true for other top end manufacturers and that is why the value drops quickly.
enjoy
You also have to understand that when manufacturers keep changing their products every few years that puts a definite lack of confidence in the stability and value of any product. Because reviewers rarely review older products (even if they are still produced) and want nothing but new products in their magazines, the audio manufacturers feel that they must constantly change and "upgrade" their products to keep in the news. This "upgrade" is a false premise. so, the value of previously used products go south quickly because the "next best" product will come shortly. Some people are in the amp of the month or speaker of the month club and have to "upgrade" every time something new comes out.
Find what you like that puts the music where you ultimately want it to be and enjoy. For me to get to the next level I would have to pay a lot more money and it just is not worth it. If I can find a pre-amp that is better than my Audio Research SP 11 that is remote controlled, and that I can aford, I will buy it. I'm looking at an Audio Research LS 17 or a LS 26 with a AR PH3 or 5 phono stage. But, if I don't get a very good price for them, I will stick with my very good SP 11 (retubed).
My my only problem with Martin Logan is that every year the old speakers are basically deemed obsolete by ML and new ones take their place. That is absolutely not true for other top end manufacturers and that is why the value drops quickly.
enjoy
It's funny that your very first post on this site is to spout negativity towards the speakers that we all own.as stated before most other "top" brands see the same depreciation. BTW they do not update their product line every year that's simply not true.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Minorl,
I too take great exception to your unfounded generalizations.
As Fish said, the ML product line is quite stable compared to others.
I assume you consider Wilson Audio to be a top manufacturer. Look at their record regarding release of updated models. The now discontinued Watt - Puppy is a prime example. The WP 8 was out for a grand total of 8 months or so before the WP line was discontinued. They have another name for the speaker now.
I would advise you to do your homework before you come on this site spouting half truths and misinformation.
We don't subscribe to the Jerry Springer show.
GG
I too take great exception to your unfounded generalizations.
As Fish said, the ML product line is quite stable compared to others.
I assume you consider Wilson Audio to be a top manufacturer. Look at their record regarding release of updated models. The now discontinued Watt - Puppy is a prime example. The WP 8 was out for a grand total of 8 months or so before the WP line was discontinued. They have another name for the speaker now.
I would advise you to do your homework before you come on this site spouting half truths and misinformation.
We don't subscribe to the Jerry Springer show.
GG
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
The Vantages and Vista have been produced unchanged since 2005 and 2006 respectively. Not exactly a new revision every year. However, I believe more than lousy resale value and interest is the underlying problems with the economy. Some indicators denote that things are getting better and hopefully they are.
Cheers,
ML
The Vantages and Vista have been produced unchanged since 2005 and 2006 respectively. Not exactly a new revision every year. However, I believe more than lousy resale value and interest is the underlying problems with the economy. Some indicators denote that things are getting better and hopefully they are.
Cheers,
ML
minorl, welcome ! While I agree pretty much with your first two paragraphs your third is pretty much baseless.
Minorl
Member
Why do martin logans have such lousy resale value and interest?
Well first, I am not new to this site. I have been a member for some time and went away for a while to handle personal business. Apparantly, when you are away for a while they wipe your file. Second, I don't believe that I was negative in the slightest against the speakers, just the business in general. I didn't know this was a "fan boy" site and that truth was important.
The post was specifically about why resale value and interest was low. I reponded to that post and gave very real and specific business reasons. New products, especially speakers may not be better than older products. Some are, others aren't. But, as I said, reviewers don't review older products. That does not sell magazines. So, they won't review ML products that are older, but still in production. They want new shinny stuff. ML's change every two years or so as far as new products. Never did you see me write that the new stuff was bad. Far from it. ML makes great products. I went from Sequel III's to Monolith IIIPs and I have compared the Monolith IIIPs with newer products, especially ML's and I can say clearly that after I replaced the panels, power supplies and crossovers with new, the Monolith IIIPs are better than most I've heard. The others, cost wayyyyy too much to justify purchasing at this time.
But, to stay friendly, I never said that ML products were bad. They aren't, they are great. That is why I own a pair. But value, especially resale value is based on interest and availability and reviewers. Everyone (most) want new and shinny, not old. Look at web sites for used equipment and see that is represented more than others and you will see. Krell are great products, but they change every year and because of that, you see much more Krell products on the used market. ML owners typically keep their speakers longer because they are well made and sound great.
But, if a used product is for sale, its value is higher if the manufacturer still makes it than if they discontinued it for a newer and shinnier model.
Lets stay friends,
Enjoy
Well first, I am not new to this site. I have been a member for some time and went away for a while to handle personal business. Apparantly, when you are away for a while they wipe your file. Second, I don't believe that I was negative in the slightest against the speakers, just the business in general. I didn't know this was a "fan boy" site and that truth was important.
The post was specifically about why resale value and interest was low. I reponded to that post and gave very real and specific business reasons. New products, especially speakers may not be better than older products. Some are, others aren't. But, as I said, reviewers don't review older products. That does not sell magazines. So, they won't review ML products that are older, but still in production. They want new shinny stuff. ML's change every two years or so as far as new products. Never did you see me write that the new stuff was bad. Far from it. ML makes great products. I went from Sequel III's to Monolith IIIPs and I have compared the Monolith IIIPs with newer products, especially ML's and I can say clearly that after I replaced the panels, power supplies and crossovers with new, the Monolith IIIPs are better than most I've heard. The others, cost wayyyyy too much to justify purchasing at this time.
But, to stay friendly, I never said that ML products were bad. They aren't, they are great. That is why I own a pair. But value, especially resale value is based on interest and availability and reviewers. Everyone (most) want new and shinny, not old. Look at web sites for used equipment and see that is represented more than others and you will see. Krell are great products, but they change every year and because of that, you see much more Krell products on the used market. ML owners typically keep their speakers longer because they are well made and sound great.
But, if a used product is for sale, its value is higher if the manufacturer still makes it than if they discontinued it for a newer and shinnier model.
Lets stay friends,
Enjoy
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Isn't the truth always important? Also, I cited two of the mainline ESL series which have remained in place, unchanged for 4 and 5 years respectively. I am by no means a "fanboy". However, the assertion that ML changes their speakers every year is baseless.
The only real and specific business reason you gave was that they make small changes in their models every few years and introduce new models on a regular basis. Therefore, resale values are low. You never explain how, exactly, that correlates or provide any examples. By the way, what high-volume high-end audio manufacturer doesn't do this exactly?
You state in generalities: their new products "may" not be better than older products.
Please be specific, since this seems to form the basis of your thesis. What newer models do you think aren't as good as what older models, and why?I don't really think that too many Martin Logan owners "lack confidence in the stability and value" of the brand. On the contrary, ML's upgrades to their newer models clearly show that the company is committed to the long term success of the brand.
So maybe this is just sour grapes because you can't afford the best that ML has to offer?
Not really. It's price will still depend on the features of the particular model, and the age and condition that it is in, and the availability of it at particular price points, no matter whose speakers you are talking about.
ML's are popular and that is why there is a thriving used market for them. The prices depreciate pretty regularly, just as any other high-end audio equipment. They don't put out new models and upgrades much more often than anybody else in the business.
Gordon
Well-known member
Did any of us buy our gear as an investment? I certainly did not. I bought my gear for how it would sound to me and the pleasure it would bring.
I bought my Spire's from Tweeter thinking I'd be able to upgrade at a later date. Guess I got that wrong! Oh well, I'm not going to cry over spilled milk. The Spire is performing the way I want today. If I decide that I need to upgrade in the near future, I'll take my lumps.
If any of us bought our gear thinking that there would be a fair return on resale then we're not into the whole idea of fine music. To me it is the "sound" and if it cost's me a couple dollars, so be it.
Gordon
I bought my Spire's from Tweeter thinking I'd be able to upgrade at a later date. Guess I got that wrong! Oh well, I'm not going to cry over spilled milk. The Spire is performing the way I want today. If I decide that I need to upgrade in the near future, I'll take my lumps.
If any of us bought our gear thinking that there would be a fair return on resale then we're not into the whole idea of fine music. To me it is the "sound" and if it cost's me a couple dollars, so be it.
Gordon
I think if you bought your Logans with resale in mind you
1) spent more than you should have
2) purchased for all the wrong reasons
if you had an unexpected financial crisis I truly feel bad that you have to take a loss as that's the last thing anybody want's to experience.
that being said I think people who buy and trade on audiogon obsessively are more into the equipment and not the music and that's a shame because you have totally missed the entire point why this stuff was created to begin with.I will admit that I do love the equipment as well some of it is so cool.
1) spent more than you should have
2) purchased for all the wrong reasons
if you had an unexpected financial crisis I truly feel bad that you have to take a loss as that's the last thing anybody want's to experience.
that being said I think people who buy and trade on audiogon obsessively are more into the equipment and not the music and that's a shame because you have totally missed the entire point why this stuff was created to begin with.I will admit that I do love the equipment as well some of it is so cool.
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Irishtom
Well-known member
Minorl is raked over the coals for heresy. Speaking of which the Klipsch Heresy is a speaker with a total of only 2 major changes (and the changes aren't really that major anyway) in it's 50 year history and which holds it's value very well.
It's funny though that since the Hoosier Garage Door King took over the speakers now defy the laws of physics; the new Heresy is claimed to be more efficient AND having deeper bass in the same sealed box as the old one. Hoffman's Elastic Law.
It's funny though that since the Hoosier Garage Door King took over the speakers now defy the laws of physics; the new Heresy is claimed to be more efficient AND having deeper bass in the same sealed box as the old one. Hoffman's Elastic Law.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Irish,
Hoosier Garage Door King?
Please elaborate.
Regarding more efficiency and deeper bass, I will tell you that the Summit clearly does both in comparison to the SL3, which I owned for five years or so. I did enjoy the SL3 and probably still would hadn't I upgraded but from a quantatative performance standpoint, the improvements are clearly audible.
And the Summit is smaller in all dimensions.
And it's not a question of being raked over the coals for heresy. The issue is making false, indefensible claims about ML, such as ML causing "obsolesence" by introducing new models (read replacing old) on an annual basis.
Another example, not cited, is the Summit. It was out for about 3 years until they came up with the "X" edition.
Nothing wrong with stating facts as long as they are true. In this case, they are not.
GG
Hoosier Garage Door King?
Please elaborate.
Regarding more efficiency and deeper bass, I will tell you that the Summit clearly does both in comparison to the SL3, which I owned for five years or so. I did enjoy the SL3 and probably still would hadn't I upgraded but from a quantatative performance standpoint, the improvements are clearly audible.
And the Summit is smaller in all dimensions.
And it's not a question of being raked over the coals for heresy. The issue is making false, indefensible claims about ML, such as ML causing "obsolesence" by introducing new models (read replacing old) on an annual basis.
Another example, not cited, is the Summit. It was out for about 3 years until they came up with the "X" edition.
Nothing wrong with stating facts as long as they are true. In this case, they are not.
GG
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No, he was raked over the coals for voicing negative opinions of ML's in his first post on this forum (at least in this incarnation), without giving any real facts to back them up. The only "fact" he even tried to throw out to back up his negative assessment in his first post was that ML changes their product line every year:
This is clearly false, as pointed out by the responses to his post. ML changes their product lines every three to five years, just as many other high end manufacturers do.
If someone is going to come onto a forum and spout negative comments about the manufacturer that is the main subject of the forum (in their first post, no less), then I daresay they had better have some solid factual evidence to back up their claims or they can expect to get raked over the coals. I suspect that was entirely Minorl's intention with that post. So he could then play the victim and chastise other members of the site for being fanboys.
And how about you, Irishtom? Did you give any relevant factual information to support his claims? Nope, just a general reference to Klipsch, which when looked at closely, proves just the opposite contention.
Please give us some examples of how these speakers hold their value any better than legacy ML products? Looking at the 'gon, Klipsch speakers seem to be selling at a pretty big discount to original retail value. The same is true of Magnepan speakers, whose models don't change very often either. Their used values aren't any greater than ML's.
As an example, a pair of 60th anniversary Klipschhorns are listed right now at 50% of original retail value, but haven't sold yet. Likewise, a pair of 20th anniversary CLS iiz just sold at slightly less than 50% of original retail value. A pair of La Scala's are listed right now for right at 50% of original retail value. Likewise, a pair of Vantages are listed at 50% of their original retail value. There are a twenty year old pair of Heresy II's listed for a third of their original retail cost. There are also a pair of Sequel II's, which are probably almost as old as those Heresy's, listed for about a third of their original cost.
So please explain, with factual evidence if you can, how never upgrading your models makes them hold their retail values better than when you upgrade the models every few years?
Funny, but I don't remember any discussions along the lines of this thread before the economy collapsed. I think what people are trying to blame on the manufacturer is a simple case of the used market hurting all across the high-end spectrum due to simple economic factors. As has been said above, if you are buying your high fi gear as an economic investment, then you are pretty well missing the point anyway.
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Actually, Gordon, the Summit was released in January of '05, and the Summit X was released in January of '09. So that is four full years between the original model and the upgrade, which is absolutely a reasonable time frame between model upgrades.
I can't help but notice that Minorl hasn't come back with a single example to support his false contention that ML upgrades their models every year (his first post) or every other year (his second post), which was the whole basis for his contention that frequent upgrades are depreciating the used value of the brand. Nor has he provided any examples to show that ML's depreciate any differently than a manufacturer that never upgrades their products.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Rich,
I was a early adopter. My how time flies.
Best,
Gordon
I was a early adopter. My how time flies.
Best,
Gordon
Irishtom
Well-known member
Did I say MLs don't hold their value?
Klipsches, the "real" ones go down and then hold. And in some cases such as those with Stephens and WE drivers value seems to go back up.
Paul Klipsch made only a few models of speakers and all were based on a common platform, basically as you went up the line you got deeper bass and/or better dynamics. And they were speakers ole PWK believed in. He sold the company to a cousin from Indiana who made a bundle selling garage doors and openers. Then the company started making speakers to suit price points and now the company, which once stood for quality and one man's vision of a proper speaker, is trying to be everything to everybody. Now their flagship speaker has direct radiating bass, something ole PWK would use when he wanted a smaller speaker but NOT when he wanted the best.
Klipsches, the "real" ones go down and then hold. And in some cases such as those with Stephens and WE drivers value seems to go back up.
Paul Klipsch made only a few models of speakers and all were based on a common platform, basically as you went up the line you got deeper bass and/or better dynamics. And they were speakers ole PWK believed in. He sold the company to a cousin from Indiana who made a bundle selling garage doors and openers. Then the company started making speakers to suit price points and now the company, which once stood for quality and one man's vision of a proper speaker, is trying to be everything to everybody. Now their flagship speaker has direct radiating bass, something ole PWK would use when he wanted a smaller speaker but NOT when he wanted the best.
