Explain Speaker Placement to me like a Beginner

[andrew.hendler]

Hi All -

I've had my 13as for a couple years and, unfortunately, about 6 months ago I had a partial panel failure. The good news, is that I was able to get brand new panels (though I had to pay for 1). I've been running them for about 3 months, though there aren't a ton of hours on them.

I've typically had my dealer set up the speakers, and while he's good, he puts them closer than is recommended to the back wall. Additionally, he has the left toed in less than the right because the left speaker is 5 feet from the side wall and the right speaker isn't.

Additionally, he went through ARC with the previous panels, and when we placed them again, we didn't re-run Arc. While I had tape on the ground to get them back in position, it wasn't an exact thing.

What I'm finding is that they don't sound quite as good as they did before. Yes, they've had to break in, but the staging seems off and the bass doesn't seem quite right. Furthermore, while I've adjusted the rake a little bit, the upper mids are a bit hot (especially high piano keys out of the right channel). Previously, with the old panels, I had solved this by moving off the back wall more.

At this point, I would like to learn how to best adjust these for my preferences without relying on my dealer. He's a great guy, but I'd like to learn how to do this myself and for my preferences. I'm not listening to the speakers as much and it's a shame.

Where to start? Also, I have the perfect bass kit, so I can rerun Arc at any point. This seems pretty straightforward and probably the easier thing to do than placing the panels ideally.

 

[JonFo]

Giving a general theory would take a book, so let's start with your specific layout. You describe it well, but a floor plan with dimensions and locations would greatly help. A hand-drawn one is fine.

Step 1 is to discuss locations and other things, like room treatments, as it sounds like it's an asymmetric setup.

Once placed correctly, then run PBK, and finally, if the processor has room correction (Audessey, Dirac, etc.), run that.

 

[andrew.hendler]

That's more than fair. I have no room treatments, but they are in a carpeted room. It's L shaped and the ceiling is of different heights as it's a basement. The woofers are placed a foot from the back wall and the panels, therefore are about 3 feet. The seating is placed halfway into the room, so there is a good 10 -15 feet behind the couch.

I just removed any rake (but left the spikes in), and that moved things in the right direction at least. Tonally it sounds more linear (maybe these panels do need some more break in - the woofers however are broken in). Moving the couch around a tiny bit and Vocals and Bass are centered. Vocals may be a bit too "big" and take up much of the soundstage, but big vocals, I know, go with these speakers.

Here are some pictures to give you a better idea (the couch could use some tidying up):


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[Doug033]

First, I would recommend verifying that the rake angles are truly equal. Mine get muddy vocals if they are off by even a couple of degrees. Use a digital protractor placed at the top of the panels. Rake angles can also change the vertical placement of center vocals; back lowers the image, tilted forward raises the image. After you’ve arrived at the optimum rake, move on to toe-in. Your comment that the vocals seemed too “big” makes me think you don’t have enough toe-in. But, like the rake angles, make sure they are exactly equal.

 

[Tmort]

I’d definitely pull them further out from the front wall, do the “ flashlight test” to correct the toe in (the right speaker is facing you directly). But, most importantly get some sound absorption on the walls directly behind those panels, that alone will SHOCK you at what it does for your clarity and soundstage. I’ve used GIK Acoustics panels, there are others but they can also help you with other ideas. The biggie though is taming those front wall reflections.

 

[JonFo]

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, thanks.

OK, this is not an uncommon setup, with one speaker near a sidewall yet open on the other side. I'd guess your soundstage is a bit skewed to the left. Your dealer attempted to mitigate that a tiny bit using the toe-in, which controls the rear wave reflection angles off the front and the side walls.

To solve this, you will need to use absorption on the left side wall, roughly from the HVAC air return all the way to the front wall. That will kill the reflections from the front wall and be more similar to what happens to the rear wave of the right speaker, which bounces off the front wall and off into open space.

The issue with "the upper mids are a bit hot (especially high piano keys out of the right channel)" is due to comb-filtering and ringing because the panels rear wave (remember, an ESL outputs just as much sound from the rear as from the front).
As a fellow piano enthusiast, I am very familiar with this. When I first deployed my ESLs, I had the same issue.

The mitigation for this is to place absorption on the front wall at the location where the panel points (so it is a bit more to the sides than straight behind the speaker).
If you are open to DIY, I can give some suggestions, but if you want a simple, quick fix, then a RealTraps Mini Trap HF (the HF is critical; that means no High-Frequency reflections) hung 2 or 3" off the wall will do it.

The absorption for the left could be a pair of Mini Traps, as that will also mitigate a low and mid frequency 'boominess' from the boundary reinforcement.
Or, you could make a DIY box that is 4' high and the length of the door to the front wall, something like my custom sidewall treatments.

 

[Tmort]

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/
These panels in a 24x48” size are really good, ask for samples of the upgraded fabrics they are well worth the money…. You can make them work with the aesthetics of your space.
A nice bass trap in the left side corner there would be a good idea too I suspect.

 

[andrew.hendler]

Thanks. I will try some sound absorption panels. Thing is, I got the sound pretty great and non-fatiguing with the old panels. The only change in the room was we got a new carpet which is slightly thinner and tighter knit. But before I replaced the panels they were playing in the room with these speakers and I couldn’t get the highs to be pronounced enough.

I am hoping it’s mostly break in, because I haven’t put a lot of hours on the new panels - I’m trying to remedy that now. It’s the only thing that makes sense, really, unless ML changed the panels. That said, I did have some “beaming” before when I first got the speakers.

That said, it’s about time to rid acoustic treatments of some kind. With the amount I’ve spent on audio equipment it should be a no brainer.

 

[Tmort]

In a room such as yours with lots of hard surfaces and speakers relatively close to the front wall you’re like me in thinking it sounded pretty good…but you’re going to have an OMG experience once you put in some treatments.
I am curious, why did your speakers require new panels, 13A’s can’t be that old.

 

[andrew.hendler]

In a room such as yours with lots of hard surfaces and speakers relatively close to the front wall you’re like me in thinking it sounded pretty good…but you’re going to have an OMG experience once you put in some treatments.
I am curious, why did your speakers require new panels, 13A’s can’t be that old.

About a foot of the left panel would be really weak in the high frequencies at the top of the panel.. They diagnosed it as a partial panel failure - I don’t know the cause, and I replaced both of them at the same time.

Goi no to new panels from panels used for a couple years really show that there is some break in with these.

 

[ttocs]

I've posted the video below many times, here and elsewhere. It's simple, effective, and free. It will NOT necessarily result in a mirror image symmetrical setup. My speakers differ by 4-1/2 inches distance from the front wall. The right speaker is in a corner filled with absorption because it's a corner with windows, the left speaker has no absorption around it being the left wall is another 12 feet away from it. The Toe and Rake of both speakers are similar. I use a very extreme toe-in such that the flashlight reflects from the Outer Edge of the panels instead of the inner edge, and not one-third from the edge, but instead a bit less. Using this setup results in a bit wider sweet spot, and neighboring seats retain a good stereo image being more in front of one speaker but at a steep toe angle and having a more centered relationship to the opposing speaker which has stronger sound coming from it, ie, the balance is very good and it is intentional.

All of the speaker placement work was done after I'd already had some absorption in place for a while, which is 100% necessary as the right corner has one floor to ceiling window at the right end of the front wall that is 3 feet wide and the entire right wall is floor to ceiling windows. The rest of the absorption was placed once the speakers were in place, then the speakers were moved some more, but were moved back again.

I moved the speakers per the video over about a two week period which included many days of listening, but the actual moving only took a short time, maybe a few hours total.

Go to 17:50 to hear the question that invokes the speaker placement method reply.

 

[DanR]

I've posted the video below many times, here and elsewhere. It's simple, effective, and free. It will NOT necessarily result in a mirror image symmetrical setup. My speakers differ by 4-1/2 inches distance from the front wall. The right speaker is in a corner filled with absorption because it's a corner with windows, the left speaker has no absorption around it being the left wall is another 12 feet away from it. The Toe and Rake of both speakers are similar. I use a very extreme toe-in such that the flashlight reflects from the Outer Edge of the panels instead of the inner edge, and not one-third from the edge, but instead a bit less. Using this setup results in a bit wider sweet spot, and neighboring seats retain a good stereo image being more in front of one speaker but at a steep toe angle and having a more centered relationship to the opposing speaker which has stronger sound coming from it, ie, the balance is very good and it is intentional.

All of the speaker placement work was done after I'd already had some absorption in place for a while, which is 100% necessary as the right corner has one floor to ceiling window at the right end of the front wall that is 3 feet wide and the entire right wall is floor to ceiling windows. The rest of the absorption was placed once the speakers were in place, then the speakers were moved some more, but were moved back again.

I moved the speakers per the video over about a two week period which included many days of listening, but the actual moving only took a short time, maybe a few hours total.

Go to 17:50 to hear the question that invokes the speaker placement method reply.

Out of all the well intentioned advice I’ve ever gotten on speaker placement. This one has been the most successful for me by far. I use it for any pair of speakers I set up (I have 5 pairs ofdifferent speakers I rotate in and out of my system) and it has never let me down, as unorthodox as some of it sounds it works for me! Thanks for posting that ttocs

 

[andrew.hendler]

Is there a general consensus that the closer the panels are to the front wall, the brighter the sound is due to the backwall reflection?

I'm thinking of experimenting with pulling them out a bit more - maybe another foot to start - but I want to understand the impact it will have. I'm less concerned with the bass at the moment, and more concerned with brightness.

That said, I'm unsure if I should just run them in for longer, because the brightness - I believe is causing the fatigue. I don't know - it's hard to pinpoint, they don't sound bright but they sound very, very detailed. I had this issue with the first set of panels when I just got them too and they were nearly in the same spots. Adjusting the rake down helped previously, but the carpet was a bit thicker, and at this point I have no rake at all.

I'm messing around with the midbass and bass controls to see if I can balance out the sound, but it doesn't really feel like that. It doesn't sound shrill or fatiguing, it sounds pretty great in fact. I don't know how much of the fatigue is due to me analyzing and how much is really needed for break in with these. Just the panels are new, the subs have already broken in.

I was very, very happy with these with the old panels (before I had issues with the left ones), in this room and in this spot (though with slightly thicker carpet - even with no treatments. It's hard to figure out what is causing the difference, how much is me because I haven't listened to them for a while, how much is the different carpet, how much is the new panels? All other components of the system and furniture are the same.

 

[ttocs]

Is there a general consensus that the closer the panels are to the front wall, the brighter the sound is due to the backwall reflection?

I'm thinking of experimenting with pulling them out a bit more - maybe another foot to start - but I want to understand the impact it will have. I'm less concerned with the bass at the moment, and more concerned with brightness.

When the panel is less than 4 feet from the front wall and the toe is minimal, the rear wave have very little delay from the front wave and adds to the sound in a negative way. At 5 feet from the front wall the rear wave stops being a nuisance because the brain interprets the increased delay of it as being a reflection.

A simple experiment is to put sofa cushions behind the panels to kill the rear wave, at least most of it in the higher frequency ranges. This will have a similar effect as moving the panels away from the wall, but not entirely the same as it won't affect the frequencies down to the crossover point as much.

With an extreme amount of toe-in like I employ, there is no rear wave bounce from the front wall that is reflected back to the MLP (Main Listening Position).

 

[Robert D]

When the panel is less than 4 feet from the front wall and the toe is minimal, the rear wave have very little delay from the front wave and adds to the sound in a negative way. At 5 feet from the front wall the rear wave stops being a nuisance because the brain interprets the increased delay of it as being a reflection.

A simple experiment is to put sofa cushions behind the panels to kill the rear wave, at least most of it in the higher frequency ranges. This will have a similar effect as moving the panels away from the wall, but not entirely the same as it won't affect the frequencies down to the crossover point as much.

With an extreme amount of toe-in like I employ, there is no rear wave bounce from the front wall that is reflected back to the MLP (Main Listening Position).

Yeah, I tried putting pillows behind my speakers, and it really did not sound all that different. I was surprised.

 

[DanR]

Is there a general consensus that the closer the panels are to the front wall, the brighter the sound is due to the backwall reflection?

I'm thinking of experimenting with pulling them out a bit more - maybe another foot to start - but I want to understand the impact it will have. I'm less concerned with the bass at the moment, and more concerned with brightness.

That said, I'm unsure if I should just run them in for longer, because the brightness - I believe is causing the fatigue. I don't know - it's hard to pinpoint, they don't sound bright but they sound very, very detailed. I had this issue with the first set of panels when I just got them too and they were nearly in the same spots. Adjusting the rake down helped previously, but the carpet was a bit thicker, and at this point I have no rake at all.

I'm messing around with the midbass and bass controls to see if I can balance out the sound, but it doesn't really feel like that. It doesn't sound shrill or fatiguing, it sounds pretty great in fact. I don't know how much of the fatigue is due to me analyzing and how much is really needed for break in with these. Just the panels are new, the subs have already broken in.

I was very, very happy with these with the old panels (before I had issues with the left ones), in this room and in this spot (though with slightly thicker carpet - even with no treatments. It's hard to figure out what is causing the difference, how much is me because I haven't listened to them for a while, how much is the different carpet, how much is the new panels? All other components of the system and furniture are the same.

When I received my panels from
ML the customer service rep Mike I believe it was said the panels would take about 100 hours to break in, and to play all different types of music in that 100 hours and also said don’t be afraid to play them loud. The perceived brightness may come around in that 100 hours. I’m currently breaking in a pair of 15” single driver speakers I put together and the place I bought the drivers from said break them in for 100 hours also but to keep it under 90dB for that first 100 hours. I wanted to run these in without my subs at all just to see if I could notice the/any changes in the100 hours. For the first 20-35 hours the speakers were very bass shy top end sounded forward due to the lack of bass. I’m now at almost 70 hours and the bass has come around beautifully so I have definitely noticed them improving, they’re actually sounding awesome, can’t wait to hear them with the subs. (15” single driver full frequency drivers, 300B SET 8watts/ch amp) so I’d say give those panels a workout for 100 hours and see if you hear any improvement. You may just be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Robert D]

When I received my panels from
ML the customer service rep Mike I believe it was said the panels would take about 100 hours to break in, and to play all different types of music in that 100 hours and also said don’t be afraid to play them loud. The perceived brightness may come around in that 100 hours. I’m currently breaking in a pair of 15” single driver speakers I put together and the place I bought the drivers from said break them in for 100 hours also but to keep it under 90dB for that first 100 hours. I wanted to run these in without my subs at all just to see if I could notice the/any changes in the100 hours. For the first 20-35 hours the speakers were very bass shy top end sounded forward due to the lack of bass. I’m now at almost 70 hours and the bass has come around beautifully so I have definitely noticed them improving, they’re actually sounding awesome, can’t wait to hear them with the subs. (15” single driver full frequency drivers, 300B SET 8watts/ch amp) so I’d say give those panels a workout for 100 hours and see if you hear any improvement. You may just be pleasantly surprised.

I had a similar experience with my new Prodigy panels. Be sure to run your DSP again after break in is done.