Spires vs. ReQuest (Possibly buyers remorse?)

[Sonnie]

Totally agree!

Completely different room, but I was suspecting a much larger room to be superior... and it may end up being so.

Funny thing is when I was looking at buying the Ascent i's... I had a few dealers and ML owners tell me that they would never work in my 11.5' wide room when they would be located about 18-24" from the front corners. It's the best sound I ever had... now I am chasing that sound. I think I am close though... very close!

 

[Rvega003]

Find a local hi-fi shop that allows for in-home trials and bring a unit home. Mcintosh, Krell, Pass labs, NAD, doesn't matter. Pick-up a descent pair of RCA's (no monster BS) pref short (about 1M) and hook it up to your Onkyo's pre-outs. Give the thing 10 min to warm up. Pop in a CD and just listen. If you don't like the results, or do and just want to consider other makes/models take the thing back and the whole experiment didn't cost you a dime. Throw those charts away, I've listened to about 65% of Martin Logan's lifetime lineup (Odyssey, CLS, Summit, etc), and receivers, no matter how big (a yamaha RXZ11 would squash that Onkyo) never do them justice, especially mass-market makes (occasionally a NAD, Sunfire, Arcam, or even Mac builds a receiver and that deserves more credit than the selection at best buy).

 

[FISH_MAN]

the only problem with an in home trial is you had better be ready to buy lol

 

[Sonnie]

There is no such thing as an in home trial in these parts. This is hillbilly country. I have amps though, that is not a problem.

 

[Len44]

Throw those charts away, I've listened to about 65% of Martin Logan's lifetime lineup (Odyssey, CLS, Summit, etc), and receivers, no matter how big (a yamaha RXZ11 would squash that Onkyo) never do them justice, especially mass-market makes (occasionally a NAD, Sunfire, Arcam, or even Mac builds a receiver and that deserves more credit than the selection at best buy).

Gotta agree with your comments...especially about the Yamaha . Also, I had (for too long) overlooked the Arcam line -- no longer! Their AV9 Pre/Pro has been widely acclaimed as "world-class" and they have just released updated "kit" to incorporate the latest in HDMI (UGH!!!) connectivity... Their new AVR 600 seems to be quite a hit.

 

[DTB300]

This is where I have issues with the equipment, if in fact there is a difference. When you get to the stage of NAD and AVM and can hear major differences, I am betting my money on one or the other doing something to the signal it is not supposed to be doing. Both should be neutral. You can definitely get quality watts in lesser expensive receivers these days. Granted, ML's do call for a bit more rock solid power at higher power levels, but once you get there, if there are then differences, one or the other is most likely coloring the sound. Now that may be to ones liking, but that doesn't make it neutral, which is what we supposedly are striving for.

The classic dog chasing its tail.....They are both black, should be neutral, they have similar parts in them, they both use RCA or XLR, they are made in the same factory, blah, blah, blah. Heard it, still hear it, and continue to read it at too many sites where people have no clue about obtaining great sound, just reading numbers, comparing figures and pictures. Ugh...typical bad information and advice.

You question if there is a difference with equipment "This is where I have issues with the equipment, if in fact there is a difference.

Then you say one or the other colors the sound: "....if there are then differences, one or the other is most likely coloring the sound."

If this is really what you believe, and not what bad information is telling you, great, enjoy the Onkyo.

You have received great suggestions and advice from people here with significant ML experience, associated equipment, and room treatments to help you in your quest, not Audiophile Ego. The folks here have proven their knowledge with room treatments and ML's that did not come from your HTS forum, despite who visits there. Room treatments while having some common basics are different with ML's and the HTS forum members have very limited knowledge of rooms, ML speakers, and associated equipment. We do.

 

[Sonnie]

I am not sure what your point is. This has nothing to do with HTS... it has to do with my experience over the last 20 years I have been dibbling in audio/video. This ain't my first ho down with ML, HT rooms and acoustics... nor separates vs receivers. I also qualified my response. I have not insinuated that I did not appreciate the advice. Actually it has been the opposite. I have stated I will be trying nearly every suggestion that has been made. I am well aware of the knowledge here, which is why I visited here in the first place.

I would respect your advise much more if you would not be condescending... again, from experience, it is one reason why so many people do not return to forums for more help.

 

[Irishtom]

Sonnie---Mind that this is a forum where to say a receiver can provide excellent sound is treated by many as an outrageous statement but to say an "audiophile wall outlet" can provide excellent sound isn't. There's a great deal of audio religion here and several inquisitors to keep the faithful in line.

 

[Sonnie]

I have no problem with peoples opinions, but I would like for mine to also be respected without being treated like I know absolutely nothing.

I have been listening... and I have made arrangements already to snag a NAD T785 again, but it is still a receiver, however, I will continue to stand by putting it up against any set of separates available. It would be interesting to see the results of an A/B double blind listening test with some of the claims I see floating around the Internet. It is amazing some of the extreme comments people will go to in order to justify their expenditure... not pointing fingers here, but it does happen nearly everywhere. I believe some are legit simply because people like different sounds, but it is not the same for the majority of people, at least not by what I have been able to tell. It also does not mean that "different" sound is necessarily acurate.

Here's a great article IMO.... The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

 

[FISH_MAN]

Sonnie---Mind that this is a forum where to say a receiver can provide excellent sound is treated by many as an outrageous statement but to say an "audiophile wall outlet" can provide excellent sound isn't. There's a great deal of audio religion here and several inquisitors to keep the faithful in line.

that's funny

 

[RichTeer]

Here's a great article IMO.... The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

What a shame that most of that article is uninformed clap trap. I (and presumably most other readers here) have first hand experience that refutes most of those so-called lies. Allow me to discuss just a few of them.

Fact: I have audiotioned various cables, and in some cases the difference in shocking. The more expensive cable isn't necessarily better, mind, but the difference were irrefutable.

Fact: Listening tests. Again, I have taken part in listening tests between two components, and have been able to tell the difference nearly every time. What surprised me most in the most recent test was that I was comparing the DAC in a reasonable CD player to an outboard DAC. The latter was superior in every way, which I didn't expect.

Fact: I have performed my own experiments with bi-wiring. In some instances, I've noticed a big improvement over mono-wiring. This was with entry level gear and I was expecting to not hear a difference. So I was kinda surprised that I did...

Not that in the above I am not merely repeating the usual audiphile dogma. The above are accounts of my own, first hand personal observations, not anecdotes I've collected.

All that said, I remain an open-minded sceptic. There are certain bits of audiophilia that I'm sceptical about, just like I was sceptical about audio cable differences and bi-wiring. But I'm willing to give them a try. If the person who wrote the article to which you refer spent half as much time actually listening to stuff as he did pooh-poohing it, he'd get a lot more enjoyment out of his system...

 

[FISH_MAN]

every time I listen to my spires I say to myself "dam those sound good" I just cannot get use to how good they sound. I owe half to the speakers and the other half to McIntosh and my TT I am a true believer that the pre amp and amp can make or break your system.

BTW are most of your complaints while listening to music or are they from the HT side of things?

 

[Sonnie]

"... uninformed clap trap." ??? C'mon Rich.

If the person who wrote the article to which you refer spent half as much time actually listening to stuff as he did pooh-poohing it, he'd get a lot more enjoyment out of his system...

Uhhh.... I suspect he has probably listened to some fifty-eleven more systems than most others here in this forum. Not only is he (or once was) a Professor of Mathematical Logic and Computing Science that held a joint appointment in the departments of Computer Science and Mathematics at the University of Manchester, UK, but he was also a loudspeaker designer... as well as he is the Editor and Publisher of The Audio Critic.

The Audio Critic is the only consumer publication on the subject of audio that really takes objective evaluation of audio components seriously. That means exhaustive laboratory measurements and double-blind listening tests, which are provable and accountable, in addition to the usual subjective listening impressions, which are by definition unprovable.
No wonder that graduate engineers, EE professors, and other high-level professionals always speak of The Audio Critic with respect, even though it isn't terribly technical, whereas they just laugh at the tweako/weirdo audiophile magazines. Obviously, anyone can publish an audio magazine, in print or on the Web; there's no law against it, but pitifully few are qualified.

There are also some very interesting articles on "perceived" listening differences over at the Audio Engineering Society.

 

[Gordon]

Wow, after reading the link I'm confused! If you subscribe to and agree with this type of thought, why not just sit back and enjoy what you have? It obviously cannot get any better since everything is the same and any tweak is only snake oil.

I'm not a HT guy so I must defer to those who have more knowledge than I do. I think you've been given some solid advice which some you have tried and some you have rejected out of hand. That is fine, but then to post this lame link to discredit some of the things we KNOW will work is my opinion just trolling. Finely crafted, but trolling none the less.

You should try some $2000 Symposium Roller Blocks 2+! They may be of benefit considering the size of your subs. But then again, vibration control probably fits very nicely in the snake oil category.

Gordon

 

[twich54]

Here's a great article IMO.... The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

Sonnie, while I tend to view ALOT of what goes on in this hobby from a scientific / engineering standpoint I will tell you, IMO, if that is the same Peter A. I saw walking around RMAF last year, I'd take alot of what he says with a grain of salt.

Yes I've read his article, some of which I agree with BTW, for I am one that believes in the power of psychoacoustics.

Anyways....to get this thread back on track, you've received alot of info, suggestions, etc on getting your rig to sound better, looking forward to feedback relative that which you have applied and the associated results !

 

[Bernard]

What a shame that most of that article is uninformed clap trap. I (and presumably most other readers here) have first hand experience that refutes most of those so-called lies. Allow me to discuss just a few of them.

When I saw that it was written by Peter Aczel I did not bother to read any further; I knew what was coming.

 

[RichTeer]

When I saw that it was written by Peter Aczel I did not bother to read any further; I knew what was coming.

I've not heard of the guy, but I only skimmed the article. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when I see stuff that I know from personal experience to wrong presented as fact, I lose interest real quick!

 

[eknuds01]

Sonnie -

There's a certainly a few common themes being echoed throughout this thread:

Give higher quality electonics a try (sounds like you did this to some extent at some point)

Continue to tinker with the placement, room treatments, etc.

As others have pointed out, the bar was set high with your other setup. It might prove to be very difficult to 'capture that old magic' without a fair amount of experimentation.

I, for one, can relate to your experience. I started out with a 'plain Jane' vanilla Yamaha receiver and by all accounts it powered my Aerius i speakers just fine. I then got out of school, saved some money and bought an amp from Cherian (Sunfire). There was a nice improvement and then I got speakers spikes and a hybrid tube pre-amp (audio research).

Was there a huge, jaw dropping, difference from the receiver to the 'high quality' separate components?

No.

There difference, to me, was rather subtle - but it was a nice improvement overall and I am happy with my upgrades.

From your pictures, it looks like you have have a lot going for you - great speakers, a dedicated room, room treatments and so on. I will add that there is likely a combination of proper room treatment and/or speaker placement that could improve the situation - maybe dramatically.

In this hobby, the sky's the limit with respect to the combinations of room treatments, placement, different source material, amp technologies, etc. There's probably some combination that will make you happy down the line.

Erik

 

[Gordon Gray]

Sonnie,

FWIW and with all due respect, very few folks who are into audio would give Mr. Ackzel any credibility.

I believe it's well known that he did a speaker review (and gave it a rave) where he clearly had a significant (read personal) conflict of interest.

He's somewhat similar to Mr. Hersch of Stereo Review who, to the best of my knowledge, never reviewed a product he didn't like.

If you find his perspective valid, so be it. We all clearly have the right to believe whatever we want to believe. However, I believe very few folks on this forum or any other "audiophile" oriented forum would find any his assertions valid and worth serious consideration.

And by the way, there are certain members who will take pot shots for absolutely no reason. I recently had one member take one at me because I asked an innocent, well intentioned question.

I asked him to apologize and he never did. He apparently is too "small" of a person to do so.

Good luck in tweaking your system.

Best,

GG

 

[Sonnie]

Gordon... not sure how you arrive at your earlier comments, but they are inappropriate at best... definitely inaccurate... and a "pot shot" at me, if you will. I have not rejected anything completely, much less "out of hand". You might want to look up the definition of trolling, which is what you actually did... I started the thread.

Btw... what you read about his speaker company was from forum blurb. There was a LOT more to it that what was written, if you investigate. The guy is STILL editor and publisher of a VERY lucrative, successful, credible and respected audio magazine.


Thanks Erik... Going from the Denon 2807 to the Anthem gear was rather subtle as well for me. The Denon just ran out of gas when it came time to crank it up. The quality of power we definitely there at lower volumes... just not quantity. From the Anthem to the NAD was also subtle, but the NAD won out because it was definitely able to tame my bass response better without any other acoustics or outboard equalization.

Sonnie, while I tend to view ALOT of what goes on in this hobby from a scientific / engineering standpoint I will tell you, IMO, if that is the same Peter A. I saw walking around RMAF last year, I'd take alot of what he says with a grain of salt.

Yes I've read his article, some of which I agree with BTW, for I am one that believes in the power of psychoacoustics.

Anyways....to get this thread back on track, you've received alot of info, suggestions, etc on getting your rig to sound better, looking forward to feedback relative that which you have applied and the associated results !

The guy has quite a bit of credibility among the audiophile community...

"There is a countervailing force among audio magazines… I'm referring to The Audio Critic…an effective antidote to the self-serving silliness of the other audio-buff publications… The Audio Critic's reviews are models of rationality, coherence, and technical competence."
—LARRY KLEIN in Electronics Now
(Larry Klein is the former Technical Editor of Stereo Review, predecessor of
Sound&Vision.)

"I always enjoy reading your nice little magazine. It is a pleasure to see that you have managed after all these years to continue to speak the truth and keep your sense of proportion and humor."
—R. A. GREINER
Emeritus Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering
University of Wisconsin

"The Audio Critic…shines by an absence of the typical technical nonsense that I find in all the other audio magazines. On top of that the tone of presentation makes it so much more readable…"
—SIEGFRIED LINKWITZ*
Linkwitz Lab, Corte Madera, CA
*of Linkwitz-Riley crossover fame

"…‘Accountability in audio journalism' and your no-nonsense, rational approach to product reviews are a refreshing change and a source of continuing entertainment for me."
—JOSEPH D'APPOLITO, Ph.D.*
Andover, MA
*of D'Appolito speaker geometry fame

BUT... I also understand it does not make him an audiophile god either. He just cannot be that easily dismissed.

FTR... my posting of that link was totally in response to Irishtom's comments and all in good fun discussion. Of course if the shoe fits...

While I do not necessarily agree with everything the guy says, it is a really good article with a LOT of proven and credible truths. It is kind of like the preacher who preaches on sin that members in the congregation are guilty of... it steps on their toes and they get hostile and defensive.

**************

Ah yes... back on track with the thread.

1- As suggested... I have moved the speakers a little further inward, but will not be able to move them any farther out from the wall until I get longer speaker wire... which I just have to go to the closet to dig out amongst a bus load of cables and wires.

2- As suggested... I have installed the acoustic panels on the front wall, although I will need to order replacements for the sides... which has now been done. GIK says thank you ML Owners Club!

3- As suggested... I have ordered the very last NAD T785 that NAD had in stock (at least I got a good deal on it)... more "quality" power.

I appreciate the suggestions and opinions for improvement...