Increasing Martin Logan sweet spot with Synergistic Research HFT's

[Brad225]

I guess the real point is Mark. Everyone here knows how you feel about anything other than basic equipment, ala Ethan. That is fine it is YOUR choice.

You just can't skip an opportunity to tell someone they are wrong and effectively foolish. That is my only point, this need to feel superior and smarter for whatever reason.

I don't expect you to change, its your choice.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I guess the real point is Mark. Everyone here knows how you feel about anything other than basic equipment, ala Ethan. That is fine it is YOUR choice.

You just can't skip an opportunity to tell someone they are wrong and effectively foolish. That is my only point, this need to feel superior and smarter for whatever reason.

I don't expect you to change, its your choice.

Once again you make an extremely negative assumption about my motivation. I could care less about feeling superior or smarter than anyone and sadly I do realize it is a complete waste of time because of the specifics of human nature that I mention. For all practical purposes I am beating my head against a wall the same as if I was trying to talk someone out of their religion.

What is really humorous is that you have the dynamics all wrong. I don't walk away feeling better about myself, in fact I usually feel horrible, frustrated and like I'm failing since I can't explain something and have people understand it.

 

[Gordon Gray]

You just can't skip an opportunity to tell someone they are wrong and effectively foolish. That is my only point, this need to feel superior and smarter for whatever reason.

I don't expect you to change, its your choice.

Agreed but Mark doesn't quite see it that way. With all due respect to Mark, he is the EW Apostle hook, line, and sinker. And Mark is, from what I can tell, a "passive" listener and spends minimal time listening to music critically on a one on one basis. And there is a clear, undisputable reason EW has been basically banned from all audio forums. Lack of respect for differences of opinion and insulting those who disagree. That aside, I have a great deal of respect for Mark and his intellect in many areas except for the obvious.

I did hear a demo at RMAF several years ago and was quite amazed (as was my audio type friend who sat beside me during the demo) by the positive differences the thread topic devices made.

Gordon

 

[RUR]

And there is a clear, undisputable reason EW has been basically banned from all audio forums. Lack of respect for differences of opinion and insulting those who disagree.

Yep, Ethan is his own worst enemy. I wonder if he's banned, even from HA?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

These discussions are interesting and challenging.

I love to watch wood working YouTube videos in the morning and YouTube catalogs my areas of interest and sometimes gives me overlapping combinations of my interests.

This morning I watched the construction of some high end audio equipment from wood and slate. The workmanship is top notch. This is artwork that most would find beautiful.

What stuck out to me was that the gentleman said that they used the same wood used to make guitars for their amplifier enclosures. He went on about the sonic properties of the wood and showed beautiful dove tail joinery, but he said that the wood surrounding the amplifier imparted a sound to the music.

This is where I see a scientific untruth. The wood enclosure surrounding amplifier electronics can not impart any character to the music signal coming out of it. It is a mathematical impossibility. However some would nod their heads, see the beauty of the wood and believe that having a wood enclosure made of high quality guitar wood somehow makes the amplifier sound better. If they saw the same amplifier surrounded in a metal enclosure or MDF they would think it did not sound as good. They believe it sounds better and if I don't have personal experience with that amplifier that I can't know it is impossible for the wood to impart sound quality to the electronics inside it.

I am being told that physics and the laws of nature are somehow less important than my passion or religiosity about audio equipment. It's similar to saying a religious fanatic is more objective about something than an observer.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Yep, Ethan is his own worst enemy. I wonder if he's banned, even from HA?

One of his latest crusades is against illegal telemarketers.

So far he has received numerous checks from solicitors calling his home illegally. The last check was for $1,000.

He has his steps documented and is trying to get others to help make it financially painful enough for telemarketers to stop harassing people.


Of course his Null Box is another of his projects and he should be able to offer measurable proof of what a cable does or doesn't do to an audio signal.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I am being told that physics and the laws of nature are somehow less important than my passion or religiosity about audio equipment.

Mark,

We are all trying to tell you to act in a cvil, non-insulting, respectful manner and post accordingly when you disagree with someone.

Respectfully,

Gordon

 

[GW1800]

Mark. This probably over the top but it’s hard to take you seriously with Ethos speakers no subs and god knows what cables. You make a lot of noise but really have not taken this hobby seriously or you would of been way beyond your current system. You really don’t have much skin in the game so to speak. Yet you yell from the mountain tops as if you do. Well let me just tell you you do not. The things we are talking about take a more advanced system to hear the difference. Hey nothing wrong with your system but to hear power , grounding and cables are not at the Ethos level

 

[RCHeliGuy]

It is an interesting argument that "if you can't hear a difference that say a power cable makes than your system just isn't high end enough." And of course that since I don't obsess over my stereo system and take it as "seriously" that I wouldn't notice a difference anyway. So since I'm not part of the tribe the laws of physics and nature don't matter and the whole science part of this is moot.

That is clearly where we have a huge disagreement. The laws of physics are not bent just because you have a 6 figure stereo. This does not mean that different equipment couldn't sound better, just that a power cord will never matter even if you have a $1,000,000 stereo. I know that there are better speakers out there. But just because a speaker is better doesn't mean that it responds to magic beads, or that 20' feet of $1 per foot solid core romex delivers better power magically because there is a short run of something else that leads to a plug and thin wire inside the enclosure. There is no science or even a theory that would support that making a difference. It can't. We are talking about an impossibility.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I think what confuses this whole issue is that there is such a complex interrelationship with room dynamics and speaker placement, room treatments, listener position and matching some components together as to cloud everything. Any system that passes a certain level of complexity starts to defy complete understanding and that introduces doubt and confusion. Once there is doubt and confusion myths are formed. Since there is so much trial and error and complex interrelationships between things that do matter, it is very easy to start assuming things that are not part of the equation must be involved when they are not. Add to that the fact that moving just a few inches in a room can impact what you hear and moving components small amounts can impact what you hear further confuses things.

 

[twich54]

It is an interesting argument that "if you can't hear a difference that say a power cable makes than your system just isn't high end enough." And of course that since I don't obsess over my stereo system and take it as "seriously" that I wouldn't notice a difference anyway. So since I'm not part of the tribe the laws of physics and nature don't matter and the whole science part of this is moot.

That is clearly where we have a huge disagreement. The laws of physics are not bent just because you have a 6 figure stereo. This does not mean that different equipment couldn't sound better, just that a power cord will never matter even if you have a $1,000,000 stereo. I know that there are better speakers out there. But just because a speaker is better doesn't mean that it responds to magic beads, or that 20' feet of $1 per foot solid core romex delivers better power magically because there is a short run of something else that leads to a plug and thin wire inside the enclosure. There is no science or even a theory that would support that making a difference. It can't. We are talking about an impossibility.

While I agree with a lot of what you have said you will NEVER convince someone that has spent four figures (or more) on their 'wire'. If they believe and it makes them happy, so be it !

In the end it comes down to what we individually enjoy and appreciate, thank the Lord I'm past that crazy 'upgrade' sickness.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Once there is doubt and confusion myths are formed.

Mark,

This is totally presumptuous and self serving on your part IMHO. But a good try and I appreciate the tone of your post.

And Dave's point is well taken. A more transparent system will obviously reveal more sonic nuances and subtleties than a less transparent one. I heard more musical information when I swapped out my Summits for the MBL 116's and less now that I have my Joseph Audio Pulsars. And yes, all three speaker systems had / have been optimized (by ear / no measurements) to the best of my abilities. And it took a lot of time and experimentation (one on one, critical listening) to get each system to its most transparent level.

As for power cords and differences they can make, please watch the video.

Best,

Gordon

PS: https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0

 

[Brad225]

Thanks for that link Gordon. I had never seen Caelin with that demonstration before.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Brad,

Here's one on the SR Etron square wave test.

https://youtu.be/CXwRTzJZ7Y0

Gordon

PS: In addition to reviews that I read, this and other SR videos convinced me to go with SR wire throughout my system except for the speakers. At a total of 70' for both, I simply could not afford the SR speaker cable.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Come on!
I never suggested that you use a cable that isn't rated properly for the power needed.
If you compare your cable against something that isn't even rated for the load of course it's going to have issues.

Look at this wire he compared against!!!

He wanted to show a night and day difference so the comparison cable looked pretty thin and underrated wire won't handle a decent power load and it will get hot with use.

Seriously? Do you think even I would use thin gauge wire like that?

This is purely an A/B test between not enough gauge and plenty of gauge. I guarantee that a cheap heavy gauge wire would test just as well.

 

[twich54]

As for power cords and differences they can make, please watch the video.



PS: https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0

Gordon, I always get a chuckle out of that video when it is brought out. There's no mention of the wire gauge used in either pair of PC's, it's quite obvious that the 'stock' cord is significantly less. What should have been done is to take a third PC of comparable gauge, example.... Signal Cables 'power cord' (which I use) http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html at a fraction of the cost !

 

[rpokuls]

I agree with RCHeliGuy (Mark?) on this.

But that being said, these discussions are hopeless. We are not talking technology here. We are talking about beliefs and faith. True believers will never be convinced by technical arguments.

 

[Gordon Gray]

just that a power cord will never matter even if you have a $1,000,000 stereo.

Mark, I'm just taking you at your word.

Dave, many folks use the supplied power cord with no questions asked. Many AV receivers have PC's like the one shown.

I thinks that is the point of the video. If you and Mark think it is a ruse, so be it.

Gordon

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark, I'm just taking you at your word.

Dave, many folks use the supplied power cord with no questions asked. Many AV receivers have PC's like the one shown.

I thinks that is the point of the video. If you and Mark think it is a ruse, so be it.

Gordon

For a typical AV receiver a cord like that is perfectly fine. For a CD player or a DAC it is fine. Power consumption and demand are minimal and a cord like the provides plenty of power.

The only time there "might" be an issue is for a high powered amplifier running at continuous high volume.

Keep in mind that most high quality amplifiers have large capacitors, in some cases ENORMOUS capacitors to deal with any instantaneous transients and they refill quite easily between transients.

At anything but higher volumes there would only be an issue when the amplifiers first turn on, but typically they blackout until they are ready.

The point is that my amplifier rated at 500W into 4ohms is relatively inexpensive compared to many of yours and came with a VERY stout cable in the box.

I should run my amplifier through my power meter to give you guys an idea what is actually being pulled. It has a peak current draw reading.

I could run it at normal listening levels and then as high as I've ever dare go when the walls are shaking.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Gordon, I always get a chuckle out of that video when it is brought out. There's no mention of the wire gauge used in either pair of PC's, it's quite obvious that the 'stock' cord is significantly less. What should have been done is to take a third PC of comparable gauge, example.... Signal Cables 'power cord' (which I use) http://signalcable.com/magicpower.html at a fraction of the cost !

FWIW I get to see some of my power cables absolutely maxed out.

I have a 2kW generator that I take to the air field. I have a VERY thick 50' extension cord for it that is rated at 1850W continuous which is all my generator can realistically put out.

I also have a 2kW power supply, but it is really only 2kW at 240V and only 1850W at 120V. It's ultra high efficiency and drops load quickly when not needed. I use it to fast charge LI flight batteries that way several pounds each.

In this case I have the generator, cable and power supply feeding my chargers MAXED or close to it for 20 minutes at a time. I have a power meter that I've used to monitor how close I am, but the Chargers, 4 of them are connected to a central controlling device that makes sure that the load pulled from all for chargers does not exact a maximum value I've set.