Bernard
Well-known member
Rich should be able to advise you on which Bose to buy.proceeds to Sam's Club and by a Bose system !!
Spires vs. ReQuest (Possibly buyers remorse?)
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User211
Well-known member
Fact 1: the Requests will sound bigger than the Spires.
Fact 2: the Ascent sounds bigger than a Spire or a Summit.
Fact 3: ML reduced the size of their speakers to gain domestic acceptability and increase sales.
Fact 4: if you really value a large soundstage, the best options will be a Monolith, a Prodigy, CLSs on stands with possibly subwoofer backup, or as you indicate, a Request. Or the expensive and best option: CLX + 2x Descent i.
Fact 5: the smaller hole size on the newer panels does increase the surface area available to drive the air.
Fact 6: fact 5 does NOT make the speakers sound bigger than they actually are.
Fact 7: the holes, by their very nature, will cause diffraction effects (hey - now that might make it sound a bit bigger?).
Fact 8: more holes = more diffraction i.e. the sound gets more "split up". I believe this causes the grainier effect noted by Cherian. There isn't much major difference in the panels than this, other than the airframe.
Fact 9: you need to feed Spires with a much better amp than you are currently doing to get top notch results, as has already been said.
Fact 10: none of these facts prevent the Spires/Summits being anything other than excellent speakers.
And Fact 11: someone will not agree with the facts!
If so, please educate me.
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Irishtom
Well-known member
I own re-quests, and I have to say, that they are probably one of the best speakers i've heard, with great off axis response, and a huge deep stage. HOWEVER, mine required significant work to get them to sound good.
needed a biamp setup. Careful selection of speaker cable and associated equipment, and THEN room treatments.
my advice:
buy an anthem MCA20. Its a very very nice piece, its balanced, its stable down to 2ohms, has lots of power, and sounds wonderful. (I have one in my second system right now). Used for about $650. If you decide for HT later you can buy a MCA30 (3 channel amp) that matches.
pull every single piece of treatment off the walls. Move the speakers at least 4 feet from the back wall, use the flashlight trick to toe them for the inner 1/3. I like mine SLIGHTLY less toed in.
One the speakers are set, start re-introducing acoustic treatments. Treatments make a HUGE difference, but treatments in the WRONG places reek havoc. There is no set formula, every room differs, which is why you see so many setups that seem to contradict.
Finally, its hard to know what a dealer calls "broken in". My logans were technically broken in after a month of pretty solid listening. But it took 2-3 for them to settle down and sound complete.
needed a biamp setup. Careful selection of speaker cable and associated equipment, and THEN room treatments.
my advice:
buy an anthem MCA20. Its a very very nice piece, its balanced, its stable down to 2ohms, has lots of power, and sounds wonderful. (I have one in my second system right now). Used for about $650. If you decide for HT later you can buy a MCA30 (3 channel amp) that matches.
pull every single piece of treatment off the walls. Move the speakers at least 4 feet from the back wall, use the flashlight trick to toe them for the inner 1/3. I like mine SLIGHTLY less toed in.
One the speakers are set, start re-introducing acoustic treatments. Treatments make a HUGE difference, but treatments in the WRONG places reek havoc. There is no set formula, every room differs, which is why you see so many setups that seem to contradict.
Finally, its hard to know what a dealer calls "broken in". My logans were technically broken in after a month of pretty solid listening. But it took 2-3 for them to settle down and sound complete.
Sonnie
Well-known member
The ones in that particular build are Audiopulse AXIS 15's, equivalent to the TC Sounds 3000. Here's the build thread on those.
The rear is also a LLT tuned to about 8Hz (accidentally - intended 12Hz, but it was an untried design using the riser as part of the enclosure)... it uses four Fi Audio Q18's.
a friend of mine has requests and I have to say I defiantly prefer the spire/summit sound it is much more clear and coherent the bass integration is also much better.could you clarify exactly what is driving your spires from the source to the speaker?
Sonnie
Well-known member
OPPO BD-83 >>> Onkyo 876 >>> Spires
I initially used a Denon 3806 on on the Ascent i's, was not that impressed at higher volumes (~100db), upgraded to a NAD T785 and the setup was unbelievable. No doubt the Denon was running out of juice at louder volumes on those Ascent i's, particularly trying to drive them nearly full range (80Hz on up).
The 876 is a very capable receiver and should be able to handle the mid and upper range of the Spires, being it has its own powered sub range. I spoke to Onkyo techs before buying it, while it is not rated at 2 ohms, it will handle 2 ohms and they actually rate it 320 watts at 3 ohms. The unit has a setting for 4 ohm speakers, of which I have it set to. The sound of the 876 is definitely not bright by any means. To this point, it has not run out of gas as the Denon did with the Ascent i's. I do not believe the receiver is going to be the issue, but rather placement (considering the sub location and effect on the Spires) and possibly acoustic treatment on that front wall. I will probably try the ReQuests before buying an outboard amp.
I initially used a Denon 3806 on on the Ascent i's, was not that impressed at higher volumes (~100db), upgraded to a NAD T785 and the setup was unbelievable. No doubt the Denon was running out of juice at louder volumes on those Ascent i's, particularly trying to drive them nearly full range (80Hz on up).
The 876 is a very capable receiver and should be able to handle the mid and upper range of the Spires, being it has its own powered sub range. I spoke to Onkyo techs before buying it, while it is not rated at 2 ohms, it will handle 2 ohms and they actually rate it 320 watts at 3 ohms. The unit has a setting for 4 ohm speakers, of which I have it set to. The sound of the 876 is definitely not bright by any means. To this point, it has not run out of gas as the Denon did with the Ascent i's. I do not believe the receiver is going to be the issue, but rather placement (considering the sub location and effect on the Spires) and possibly acoustic treatment on that front wall. I will probably try the ReQuests before buying an outboard amp.
I just can't believe that even at medium volume levels in that large of a room you are hearing even 50% what those speakers have to offer with that receiver hooked up to them.I will say you need to move the speakers forward a bit though
Spike
Well-known member
Well, let's examine the spec a bit more closely...
Looking at the official spec from Onkyo, I'd be suspicious upon seeing that the quoted rating is spec'ed with a single frequency of 1Khz. How does this Onkyo fare when asked to produce a band of frequencies from 80Hz to 20Khz? Also, the spec called out for 320 watts into 3 ohms, but with ONE channel only! IMHO, I don't think the Onkyo is able to put out the high quality signal as demanded from the Spires' perspective. Given that the ReQuests pose lower efficiency and a more demanding load, I don't think you're going to like what you'll get from the ReQuests. If you don't like what you're getting from the Spires+Onkyo combination, it'll probably be a waste of time trying out the ReQuests. Upgrading the amplifier is the answer here. Remember, it's NOT the volume level but the quality of the signal you're going after.
Spike
Again, while I agree better amplification would help alot, Sonnie's set-up needs attention...look at the picture, the Spires are set upon a 'step-up' platform, so if rake is not compensated for that, plus the other issues mentioned in my previous post, all the amplification in the world isn't gonna help !!
Sonnie
Well-known member
They are farther out from the wall now than they show in that picture. That was the first setup pic I made.
I am still not so sold on the power deal just yet. I could be wrong... have been on numerous occasions, that is for sure, but from my calcuations, I only need 30 watts of power to make the Spires reach 100db SPL. 85 watts for 105db. Now if I wanted to get on up to 115-120db... I would need a good bit more power, but 100-105db is a very moderate listening level for 80Hz on up. My subs might be peaking at 115db or so on movies. I could always connect up a pair of my EP2500 (1950 watts tested into 4ohms) to see what happens.
I figure for the ReQuest I would need a separate outboard two channel amp, being they are slightly less sensitive and do not have powered subs.
I am still not so sold on the power deal just yet. I could be wrong... have been on numerous occasions, that is for sure, but from my calcuations, I only need 30 watts of power to make the Spires reach 100db SPL. 85 watts for 105db. Now if I wanted to get on up to 115-120db... I would need a good bit more power, but 100-105db is a very moderate listening level for 80Hz on up. My subs might be peaking at 115db or so on movies. I could always connect up a pair of my EP2500 (1950 watts tested into 4ohms) to see what happens.
I figure for the ReQuest I would need a separate outboard two channel amp, being they are slightly less sensitive and do not have powered subs.
Sonnie
Well-known member
Yes Dave... I agree with you about the setup. I never considered the fact that the ML's are some 7" off the floor. This is why I felt tilting the forward might help. They are in farther than the pic shows, but I may be able to move them a bit closer inward, but they are at the edge of the stage now, which is ~48" from the wall.
Sonny, it is not the quantity of watts so much as the quality of watts. I can't tell you how many people on this forum have been unexpectedly amazed at the leap forward in sound quality when they moved from what they thought was a good receiver to truly high quality separates (myself included). It really is like night and day.
I agree with you and Dave that this isn't the cause of your immediate problems. Setup is. But once you have them set up right, I am telling you, you will be amazed at what you can achieve with a better pre and amp combination. Given a perfectly dialed-in setup, that receiver really is the bottleneck that keeps you from experiencing what those speakers are truly capable of.
the salesman who originally sold me my speakers should have told me that the Martin Logan speakers would eventually be the cheap part of my system! then I would hear what I was looking for. it really is a double edged sword with these they really let you know what you have and if its not top notch well their is no sugar coating it I can tell you that much.I know what my speakers are capable of and I know what they sound like and am very happy but there are other levels beyond with either my HT system or my 2channel analog.
remember what we are telling you it's quality and not quantity of watt's that count but in your sized room you will probably need both.
my mc275 blows people away (I think it would struggle in a bigger room though)and its only 75watts per but they are good watts 300 would be better but I would never trade up now quality for quantity
remember what we are telling you it's quality and not quantity of watt's that count but in your sized room you will probably need both.
my mc275 blows people away (I think it would struggle in a bigger room though)and its only 75watts per but they are good watts 300 would be better but I would never trade up now quality for quantity
Rich,
I couldn't agree more with you, very excellent points in your last 2 post.Like you said, the OP will be amazed at what good separetes will do. Until then, you haven't heard your speakers. ML's really require top grade equipment upstream to get the optimum sound from them.
I couldn't agree more with you, very excellent points in your last 2 post.Like you said, the OP will be amazed at what good separetes will do. Until then, you haven't heard your speakers. ML's really require top grade equipment upstream to get the optimum sound from them.
Sonnie
Well-known member
I went from Anthem separates to a Denon receiver to a NAD receiver... all while using the Ascent i's. I got a few quality witnesses too... absolutely zero difference at low to moderate volumes. The Ascent i's sounded excellent with either. The only difference was the Denon ran out of gas at higher volumes (3806 model). Where the NAD really exceeded on the previous two setups was taming the low end with Audyssey... and here is what it did...
I may give another NAD T785 a shot, but I am not noticing any compression or clipping at high volumes with the Onkyo at this point... it has held its own.
On to the trial changes I have made. Definitely an improvement with the panels on the front wall. I moved the farthest rear panel on the side walls to the front wall and this did make a significant improvement. I tried lying the sub boxes down, but the sound was better with them upright, although it would have helped to have a little quicker A/B comparison. I remembered why I had not moved the Spires any farther in and out than I had already and that is because I need longer speaker cable... I ran out. I can probably get them about another six inches inward and out from the wall, which may help a little more. I have not tried tilting yet... thought I would do trials in steps.
I may give another NAD T785 a shot, but I am not noticing any compression or clipping at high volumes with the Onkyo at this point... it has held its own.
On to the trial changes I have made. Definitely an improvement with the panels on the front wall. I moved the farthest rear panel on the side walls to the front wall and this did make a significant improvement. I tried lying the sub boxes down, but the sound was better with them upright, although it would have helped to have a little quicker A/B comparison. I remembered why I had not moved the Spires any farther in and out than I had already and that is because I need longer speaker cable... I ran out. I can probably get them about another six inches inward and out from the wall, which may help a little more. I have not tried tilting yet... thought I would do trials in steps.
Sonnie
Well-known member
Btw... that was the AVM-50 and MCA-50 set. I would put the much lesser expensive NAD up against anything out there.
And excuse me... it was the Denon 2807, not the 3806. I went from the 2807 to the Anthem set to the NAD.
And excuse me... it was the Denon 2807, not the 3806. I went from the 2807 to the Anthem set to the NAD.
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DTB300
Well-known member
The NAD M15 and M25 is a great combination for processing and power if someone is looking towards NAD. I would take the M15 over the AVM-50 for sound quality in a heartbeat. The M15 though is limited in options compared to the AVM-50.
Rich, Dave, Fish, etc are right, looking strictly at power ratings does not equate to sound quality you will get. Numbers do not tell the whole story - I would be glad to demonstrate the 130 watt receiver versus my 125 watt power amp. Fish and his 75 watt power amp versus the 130 watt receiver. An on and on and on.
ML's put a significant demand on power amplifiers and/or power sections and most cannot deal with it properly. Even measurements may not show you what you are hearing in the way of compromised sound. But again like others stated, not the cause of your sound stage issues entirely. But better amps can significantly help improve your sound stage reproduction. But if the room and setup do not allow it, then the differences cannot be heard.
Sonnie
Well-known member
This is where I have issues with the equipment, if in fact there is a difference. When you get to the stage of NAD and AVM and can hear major differences, I am betting my money on one or the other doing something to the signal it is not supposed to be doing. Both should be neutral. You can definitely get quality watts in lesser expensive receivers these days. Granted, ML's do call for a bit more rock solid power at higher power levels, but once you get there, if there are then differences, one or the other is most likely coloring the sound. Now that may be to ones liking, but that doesn't make it neutral, which is what we supposedly are striving for.
you know I hate to compare interests but when it comes to keeping saltwater fish many people especially ones that are new to it often rely much to much on what the tests say and ironically they are the ones with the problems and the questions when I give my opinion they argue and say "ya but look my test reads this how do you explain that?" not everything can be explained with a chart or a test although they are nice tools it is best to use the best tool you have and that's undeniably your ears. something is wrong and you know it. you bought your spires because you trusted your peers your ears and martin logan believe me the Ascent i's are nice speakers but they are not spires something here is amiss.
