Martin Logan vs. Other Speakers

[patounet]

Hello, the french listener again. I read your thread and agree with some points of view concerning Martin Logan ESL. I got Request, then Prodigies which I liked very much except the bass, too boomy and slow. Everybody knows that point. To day, I am breaking in new Renaissance 15A, I thought they were better Prodigies... but they are not. A very different presentation indeed. Yes they are more dynamic and bass is tighter, they sound clerar, but the new mico perf pannels are not so sweet, not so silky and there is a lack of harmonics. Image reproduction is smaller too and not like a big electrostatic headphone as the Prodigies were.. I get the speed and attack of notes with ESL15A, no more dark hole around 250Hz between woofer and ESL, but the magic is over as told Lightoopy. I put the ARC ON, but, again, the effect is audible, lack of deep bass after correction as told the reviewer Christiaan Punter at HFA, you need to correct the auto mode to avoid this. Many retailers do not use ARC at demos, I heard same effect on Paradigm 9H which use the same ARC. I am very surprised about the reviews about these speakers, top 10 speakers ? Many people seem very satisfied with them and do not tell any critics about ESL15A. An other sound for new people ? Good speakers, YES, but... I am sorry to tell that NEW is not always better than OLD, except for marketing strategy...

 

[Robert D]

Hello, the french listener again. I read your thread and agree with some points of view concerning Martin Logan ESL. I got Request, then Prodigies which I liked very much except the bass, too boomy and slow. Everybody knows that point. To day, I am breaking in new Renaissance 15A, I thought they were better Prodigies... but they are not. A very different presentation indeed. Yes they are more dynamic and bass is tighter, they sound clerar, but the new mico perf pannels are not so sweet, not so silky and there is a lack of harmonics. Image reproduction is smaller too and not like a big electrostatic headphone as the Prodigies were.. I get the speed and attack of notes with ESL15A, no more dark hole around 250Hz between woofer and ESL, but the magic is over as told Lightoopy. I put the ARC ON, but, again, the effect is audible, lack of deep bass after correction as told the reviewer Christiaan Punter at HFA, you need to correct the auto mode to avoid this. Many retailers do not use ARC at demos, I heard same effect on Paradigm 9H which use the same ARC. I am very surprised about the reviews about these speakers, top 10 speakers ? Many people seem very satisfied with them and do not tell any critics about ESL15A. An other sound for new people ? Good speakers, YES, but... I am sorry to tell that NEW is not always better than OLD, except for marketing strategy...

I use Prodigy speakers now. I noticed how the Audyssey room correction takes out a lot of bass from the speakers, but I use a depth i sub so they still sound great.

My panels are worn out and I'm having Martin Logan make me some new ones. I figured that since the panels are down more than 10 db, that Audyssey took out a lot of bass to balance out the speaker. Im surprised to hear that you had the same experience with ARC on new speakers. So maybe a lot of the loss of bass when using room correction is just due to the software and not the fact that my panels were shot.

 

[peacefulcargo]

Wow, 25 to 30 concerts a year. Most I've done is 5. I'm wondering, do you wear ear plugs nearly every time? I go see rock/heavy metal/alternative music concerts and they get LOUD. They seem louder now than ever, maybe it because im over 50 now! I have hearing loss and constant tinnitus. I think if I were to see 25 concerts or more a year that my hearing would be in bad shape. I got my hearing tested and the doctor said I don't need hearing aids yet. There is no cure for tinnitus, so its permanent. After a few years you learn how to filter out the high pitch buzz.

Yes I learnt the hard way, I was deaf for 2 days after being in the front row for a Flock of Seagulls concert, earplugs all the time ....but I was a late learner.

 

[peacefulcargo]

Hello, the french listener again. I read your thread and agree with some points of view concerning Martin Logan ESL. I got Request, then Prodigies which I liked very much except the bass, too boomy and slow. Everybody knows that point. To day, I am breaking in new Renaissance 15A, I thought they were better Prodigies... but they are not. A very different presentation indeed. Yes they are more dynamic and bass is tighter, they sound clerar, but the new mico perf pannels are not so sweet, not so silky and there is a lack of harmonics. Image reproduction is smaller too and not like a big electrostatic headphone as the Prodigies were.. I get the speed and attack of notes with ESL15A, no more dark hole around 250Hz between woofer and ESL, but the magic is over as told Lightoopy. I put the ARC ON, but, again, the effect is audible, lack of deep bass after correction as told the reviewer Christiaan Punter at HFA, you need to correct the auto mode to avoid this. Many retailers do not use ARC at demos, I heard same effect on Paradigm 9H which use the same ARC. I am very surprised about the reviews about these speakers, top 10 speakers ? Many people seem very satisfied with them and do not tell any critics about ESL15A. An other sound for new people ? Good speakers, YES, but... I am sorry to tell that NEW is not always better than OLD, except for marketing strategy...

I hear you , if I was going back to non electrostatic full range, personally it would be one of the oldies with a good amp. I absolutely loved the Quest but it too Bryston 28B monos to tame it.

 

[Robert D]

Yes I learnt the hard way, I was deaf for 2 days after being in the front row for a Flock of Seagulls concert, earplugs all the time ....but I was a late learner.

Do you have permanent tinnitus like me?

 

[Hear Here]

Regarding the sweet spot, it's all about the rear wave and managing it.
I have a very wide sweet spot thanks to absorbing the heck out of the rear of the front three speakers.
Absorption on the wall behind the speakers and on the side walls between the speaker edge and the front wall. Boom, no more head-in-a-vise sweet spot issues.

It is basic acoustics, as the reflected & delayed rear energy is competing with the direct radiated energy and affects imaging. Dampening that reflected signal means you hear more of the direct signal. And a bonus is less dipole cancellation in the lower range of the panel.

Well that's interesting. My own experience with MLs (13As) is that they really do need a rear wall (the one behind the speakers) for them to sound good. Maybe some wall treatment is needed but no wall (or a very distant wall) results in poor sound. I found this out in my own room where the speakers are placed centrally with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other. Most unsatisfactory.

Considering that the 11A, 13A, 15A series project half their sound enery backwards, it's logical that much of this sound needs to be salvaged and put to good use rather than letting it get absorbed. I accept what you say about phase, but doesn't Martin Logan anticipate this and design it such that reflected sound reinforces rather than cancels the forward firing sound? The Manual suggests a suitable distance to the back wall and this is presumably ideal for best sound. Unfortunately my own room doesn't permit this recommended distance, hence my particular ML problem!

 

[Robert D]

Well that's interesting. My own experience with MLs (13As) is that they really do need a rear wall (the one behind the speakers) for them to sound good. Maybe some wall treatment is needed but no wall (or a very distant wall) results in poor sound. I found this out in my own room where the speakers are placed centrally with 12 ft behind one and 15 ft behind the other. Most unsatisfactory.

Considering that the 11A, 13A, 15A series project half their sound enery backwards, it's logical that much of this sound needs to be salvaged and put to good use rather than letting it get absorbed. I accept what you say about phase, but doesn't Martin Logan anticipate this and design it such that reflected sound reinforces rather than cancels the forward firing sound? The Manual suggests a suitable distance to the back wall and this is presumably ideal for best sound. Unfortunately my own room doesn't permit this recommended distance, hence my particular ML problem!

I'm thinking the same way as you. Too short a distance behind the speaker would probably created phase problems, and too far you lose it all. I still dont understand putting up sound deadening material on the wall directly behind the speaker if its the proper distance from the speakers.

 

[tsmooth]

I have now owned my ML Montis speakers for almost five years. I spent dozens and dozens of hours optimizing the location of the speakers and then lots more hours making home-made acoustic treatments to improve the sound in my room. I totally love the experience in my room. I tend to listen to and favor female vocals as my ML's seem to excel best with this music genre.

I particularly love the soundstage and the musical clarity of my current set-up. When I'm sitting in my front and center, preferred seat the soundstage is hard to beat.

All that said, I am a little disappointed in two aspects of my set-up and that is:
1. The extremely narrow sweet spot for the best listening position. In 99.9% of the cases this is not an issue, as I am usually alone when I listen to music. Occasionally my wife will join me, but usually it's just me.
2. Lows - My ML's struggle with really deep bass. One of my favorite songs (London Grammar - Hey Now) sounds fantastic until I get to the deep bass portion, and then the music absolutely destroys my speakers making them vibrate so much I have to turn them down.

Now that the audiophile bug has fully infected me I am beginning to wonder - "am I missing an even better speaker experience?" I have done lots of reading on other speakers and am learning about dynamic vs what I have right now and I want to explore some other speakers to see if I can make another step increase better. I have now been to two different high-end audiophile stores and I sat there for an hour at both stores listening to really high end setups that I did not think sounded as good as my ML setup.

I know that speakers are a very personal choice. For me - I tend to love female vocals the most, but I would also like to listen to more rock music than I currently do. My room size is about 13' wide x 18' deep. I have McIntosh components (C2600 preamp, MC452 solid state main amp). My main source is a high res music server.

So my question for some of the more seasoned listeners on this forum is: have you come from other speakers and what are your findings on these matters?

Just checking, as I assume you do, that spikes are on the speakers? I worked for Davinci Media for several years (supplied many MLO members with their speakers) which allowed me to listen to many different setups in different rooms. My experience always led me to pursue ML for my own system.

 

[bikerneil]

Just checking, as I assume you do, that spikes are on the speakers? I worked for Davinci Media for several years (supplied many MLO members with their speakers) which allowed me to listen to many different setups in different rooms. My experience always led me to pursue ML for my own system.

Yes, I have the Martin Logan OEM supplied spikes in both speakers. When cranked up to modestly high volume, with low frequency bass music I get major vibrating (almost rattling) sound. At first I thought it might be a window making the rattling noise but investigation showed it to be the speaker itself - the back side of the woofer portion of the speaker.

Aside from the general issue of deep bass I love, love, love my ML Montis speakers. I have tons of acoustic treatment in the room and for me they sound really great. Female vocals on these speakers sound fantastic. The imaging is spectacular. If they had the bass of some of the dynamic speakers I would be set and 100% content. I guess that just gives me an audio improvement challenge for 2021......

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Neil,

Misc. thoughts in no particular order. I owned four different ML models (last being the Summits) and have never had a cabinet rattling problem. You may have a speaker isolation issue otherwise known as vibration control. Second, I switched from the Summits (my last ML speaker) to the MBL 116's. They do everything ML does well and more but is an expensive option. Third, you seem to really like your ML's and apparently are having a typical audio neurosis attack. Happens a lot with folks like us. I'd work on some vibration control and maybe some "rake angle" adjustments. I preferred the 90 degree set up.

And I agree a sub will help. I'd recommend the appropriate REL model but there are many good choices out there. First sub I've ever had for my various two channel audio systems (been doing serious two channel for some 40 years) and it blends extremely well once adjusted properly. Given your overall satisfaction with your ML's, I'd be very leery of getting sucked into the bottomless pit. It can be very expensive not to mention the self induced frustration. Try the above and get your sub from an e-dealer that offers an audition period / money back guarantee. Music Direct offers the full REL line. As Bob Marley said, don't worry, be happy.

Good luck.

Gordon

 

[bikerneil]

Thanks Gordon. Your points and advice are spot-on. And your diagnosis of audio neurosis is correct......

Any recommendations on starting point for vibration control for Montis speakers? I will also play with the rake angle. I have spent endless hours on distance from rear wall, and with toe-in - but never really played with rake or alternative feet.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Neil,

ML makes adjustable spikes for the Montis. Pricey but worthwile. RE vibration control. What's your current situation? Putting 10 to 20 pounds on the top of the woof cabinet with cushioning to eliminate surface damage is an easy start. Speaker decoupling platforms is another option. I assume you have checked to make sure the driver(s) is firmly attached to the cabinet.

Also and I assume you know this. Excessive bass energy can have a significant negative impact on clarity, transient speed, and dimensionality. I use a well recorded acoustic bass, with piano and drums (and sometimes vocals) to verify the proper amount of low end bass. Can suggest some CD's that will fit the bill.

 

[bikerneil]

Hi Neil,

ML makes adjustable spikes for the Montis. Pricey but worthwile. RE vibration control. What's your current situation? Putting 10 to 20 pounds on the top of the woof cabinet with cushioning to eliminate surface damage is an easy start. Speaker decoupling platforms is another option. I assume you have checked to make sure the driver(s) is firmly attached to the cabinet.

Also and I assume you know this. Excessive bass energy can have a significant negative impact on clarity, transient speed, and dimensionality. I use a well recorded acoustic bass, with piano and drums (and sometimes vocals) to verify the proper amount of low end bass. Can suggest some CD's that will fit the bill.

Yes, I have verified the driver is firmly attached to the cabinet base.

I am currently using the ML spikes - and these spikes pierce thru my carpet and pad and I'm sure they are contacting my concrete slab. I always wondered if spikes are riding on a hard surface like concrete are they really doing their job?? Would this be a possible application for something like IsoAccoustics GAIA Speaker Isolation Feet or a Stillpoints product?

I will try placing 20 lbs on top of both woofer cabinet bases today and see if I notice any difference.

Thanks - I will take you up on your suggested CD's and the process to follow.

I appreciate your help. I have always found this forum to be so helpful and this situation is no different. Thanks.

 

[Gordon Gray]

My last guess, regarding the rattling, is that something inside the cabinet has become loose. You can inspect if you want to remove the driver.

 

[JonFo]

I accept what you say about phase, but doesn't Martin Logan anticipate this and design it such that reflected sound reinforces rather than cancels the forward firing sound? The Manual suggests a suitable distance to the back wall and this is presumably ideal for best sound.

It's a design decision to operate the panel element as a pure dipole. Other vendors, such as Janzen design their ESLs as Monopoles. I've been gradually leaning that way over the past 15 years (having used ESLs for 28) and will be converting my center to monopole operation soon.
I even designed an ESL speaker system that is a Monopole, see the Monoray.

The reason for the recommended distances is to ensure the rear wave is delayed (and lower level) enough that it does not smear and overwhelm the front direct signal.

Unfortunately my own room doesn't permit this recommended distance, hence my particular ML problem!

And even in a room that has the space, I still absorb the rear wave because it results in better metrics (using REW), is audibly cleaner and has that wider sweet spot.
In situations like yours, the absorption is the only fix.

 

[JonFo]

I still dont understand putting up sound deadening material on the wall directly behind the speaker if its the proper distance from the speakers.

Maybe a contrasting setup will help us understand the challenge here.

Imagine a stereo setup where the speakers are ML Motion 16 Bookshelves, 4 of them. 2 are pointing towards the MLP and wired in phase, and 2 are mounted on top of the first set, but pointed in the opposite direction AND wired OUT of phase. They are 5' from the front wall and 4' from the side walls in a 14' wide room.
Both speakers generate the exact same signal, yet, they are out of phase, and going in opposite directions, with the rear-facing one reflecting off the wall behind the setup.
That's a dipole speaker setup.

Now, the rear facing signal will travel 5', hit the rear wall, and assuming some toe-in, will ricochet and then hit the side wall about another 2 or 3', then ricochet again, passing the front of the speaker maybe 3 or 4' further. So the rear wave has traveled about 12', so delayed by roughly 12ms. It is still out of phase, but slightly skewed by the delay, yet will cancel lower frequencies.

The mid and higher frequencies of this delayed signal coming off the side-wall somewhere even with or behind the speaker, combines with the front direct signal and arrives at your ears.

To our brains, there is a whole lot to process here, and psychoacoustics tells us that bounced signals >10ms add ambiance, which is touted as a benefit for large planar dipoles. and on Stereo, can indeed be pleasant, as long as it's balanced side-to side.

But if you lean left out of the sweet spot, now the bounced signal from the left wall starts to dominate and collapses the soundfield.

The fix is to reduce the levels of that delayed, out-of-phase bounced sound by absorbing it. Ideally, it's never even there in the first place.

BTW- there is a reason you do not see audiophiles deploying a dynamic speaker setup such as the above.

 

[bikerneil]

Ok, I have just completed a little test that was suggested by Gordon Gray above. I placed a 40 lb sand bag on top of my right speaker and the rattle in that speaker went away. The bag is sitting on top of the woofer cabinet - and the rattle is 90% gone.

Facts:

• Martin Logan Montis speakers, about 4 years old.
• Rattle presents itself at moderately loud volume, on low frequency bass sounds.
• Rattle is located down on the back side of the woofer cabinet.
• Rattle is on both the Left and Right speakers.
• It's annoying enough that it was driving me to consider changing to an entirely different speaker (even though I still love everything about my Montis speakers).
• I am using Martin Logan-provided OEM spikes as feet on the speakers.
• Floor = thick carpet on good pad on top of concrete slab.
• I dialed the Bass Setting knob down to -2dB
• 40 lb sand bag on top eliminates most of the rattle.

What have others done in this situation? Should I be trying to ISOLATE the speakers using something like IsoAccoustics GAIA III Isolation feet?

Thanks!

 

[Robert D]

Maybe a contrasting setup will help us understand the challenge here.

Imagine a stereo setup where the speakers are ML Motion 16 Bookshelves, 4 of them. 2 are pointing towards the MLP and wired in phase, and 2 are mounted on top of the first set, but pointed in the opposite direction AND wired OUT of phase. They are 5' from the front wall and 4' from the side walls in a 14' wide room.
Both speakers generate the exact same signal, yet, they are out of phase, and going in opposite directions, with the rear-facing one reflecting off the wall behind the setup.
That's a dipole speaker setup.

Now, the rear facing signal will travel 5', hit the rear wall, and assuming some toe-in, will ricochet and then hit the side wall about another 2 or 3', then ricochet again, passing the front of the speaker maybe 3 or 4' further. So the rear wave has traveled about 12', so delayed by roughly 12ms. It is still out of phase, but slightly skewed by the delay, yet will cancel lower frequencies.

The mid and higher frequencies of this delayed signal coming off the side-wall somewhere even with or behind the speaker, combines with the front direct signal and arrives at your ears.

To our brains, there is a whole lot to process here, and psychoacoustics tells us that bounced signals >10ms add ambiance, which is touted as a benefit for large planar dipoles. and on Stereo, can indeed be pleasant, as long as it's balanced side-to side.

But if you lean left out of the sweet spot, now the bounced signal from the left wall starts to dominate and collapses the soundfield.

The fix is to reduce the levels of that delayed, out-of-phase bounced sound by absorbing it. Ideally, it's never even there in the first place.

BTW- there is a reason you do not see audiophiles deploying a dynamic speaker setup such as the above.

That makes some sense now. So basically having dipole speakers is not a smart thing to do? Wondering then why ML doesnt have backing to their speakers to block the backward waves. I thought one of the best qualities of ESL was that they were dipole. So in the end if you make the speakers a line source going just one way and not dipole, it is easier to have a large sweet spot?

 

[Harlequin]

So I don't post that often, but every speaker sound is a compromise just like seeing a live act (how are they on the day and the equipment they use, plus sound test), having regularly gone to 25-30 concerts a year until recently. Also as one decides what is important musically in their 'universe' speaker choice can change while a person gets older and more selective. I used to listen to allot of electronic music, I now listen to allot of dark ambient atmospheric music. Here is the list of of speakers I have owned and lived with in chronological sequence from 16 to 53 yrs old which will demonstrate more than descriptive words my love of ESLs. In summary there are no other type speaker that has the presence with speed of midrange an ESL has and for me midrange is all about the the texture of the sound, there are so few speakers that do texture of midrange. Horns do midrange detail but so far I have not heard texture and I think that simply has to do with the physics of a horn (but the best I have heard are the Avantgarde). On moving coil nothing comes close to the ATC 75 midrange but again is limited by its physical width (that's why ProAc used 2 of them in the Response 4 and D100) . Magnepan - I love but again the ribbon does not have the transient speed with texture and air of an ESL ... all about the compromise. My preference is for the older models SL3/Quest/Prodigy etc but I think if I had a lack of space I like the 13a package as the sweet spot having spent time extensively listening to the 9/11/13/15.

Tannoy Monitor Gold 12
Bose 901
Proac Studio 100
Tannoy Monitor Gold 15
Boston Lynfield
Analysis Omega
JM Lab Micro Utopia
Quad 989
Quad 988
Quad 63
SF Electa Amator
Wilson Sasha
Sonus Faber Guarneri
Tannoy Arden
Final Sound 1000i
Martin Logan SL3
Martin Logan Quest
Mcintosh XRT1k
Martin Logan CLX
PMC MB2
PMC MB2XBD
Usher T515
ATC 45A
ATC 50A
ATC PA65 x 4 Stacked
Audiostatic ES100
Martin Logan CLX

Best Zi

If I may...what prompted your return to previously owned CLX’s

 

[bikerneil]

I posted this thread initially after I experienced rattling noises on both speakers at low frequency. I figured the rattling noise was inherent in this speaker design - it was so annoying that I considered changing to another line and type of speakers. I am very happy to report that I found the source of the rattle and I have resolved the issue. The noise was related to my spikes. When I replaced the Martin Logan spikes with rubber feet the noise went away! Hallelujah and amen to that!! I can now crank up my volume and not get that annoying rattle on tracks that feature low bass frequency.

This thread has lead me to some new sources of exploration for improved sound and I will tackle those after the holidays. I plan to order IsoAcoustics GAIA III Isolation feet for my Montis speakers and I plan to experiment with the tilt angle.

This is really fantastic news as I do love my speakers and the wide and deep soundstage that I enjoy after spending so much time on acoustic treatments and speaker placement. It's a great hobby for me, especially in the cold and slower winter months when I don't spend as much time traveling or outdoors. I would much rather begin a little study on tilt angle and speaker feet than spending $20K on a new speaker system that I may or may not like better than what I currently have.

Thank you everyone for your advice and suggestions above. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas!