ML Production moving

[mcmd]

is that an oxymoron I just heard ???

Not really.

For example: Gross sales = $50M, an increase from $25M year over year. Expenses = $51M.

Sales increase= Yes. Profitable= No.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Not really.

For example: Gross sales = $50M, an increase from $25M year over year. Expenses = $51M.

Sales increase= Yes. Profitable= No.

so you are telling me a company would be willing to sell their product under cost of material and operation when just an increase of 5% of their product cost would have made them profitable??? I would say that's not the case.

 

[Rich]

No, he was trying to provide an easy example so that you might understand the obvious: that increased sales does not necessarily equal increased profitability. Which is why it was not an oxymoron to say that it was a profitability issue and not a sales issue that was likely the basis of the production move. Even though ML increased sales, that does not mean they were able to remain profitable, or at least as profitable as Shoreview wants them to be.

If you have no interest in this topic, please stop trolling the thread with irrelevant comments.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
Considering the majority of Speakers sold were Chinese built Design Series Speakers, I would imagine their profits were pretty good.

I personally think they are simply maximizing profits in all ways possible. Be it doubling the cost of replacement Panels or outsourcing the ESL and Reserve ESL Series to Canada.

ShoreView's goal is to make as much money as possible. Not that this is not the goal of all enterprises. Martin Logan is simply a spoke in the wheel. A wheel which includes ready mix concrete, plastic laboratory products, packaging for cosmetics, etc...

This is as opposed to A/V Companies which are still privately owned by their Founders. It is hard not to feel that something is lost when the Founders cash out. There is no way in hades that the Statement would have seen the light of day under the current regime. I am surprised the CLX was green lighted.
Cheers,
ML

 

[mcmd]

Hello,
Considering the majority of Speakers sold were Chinese built Design Series Speakers, I would imagine their profits were pretty good.

ML, with the greatest of respect, that's wild speculation. Cost of goods sold was probably significantly lower, but that doesn't translate automatically to net profit.

I personally think they are simply maximizing profits in all ways possible.

Not sure we have enough information to make that determination, even if profit maximization is now considered to be a "crime". In small manufacturing firms, profit maximization typically results in increased R&D budgets. And as you pointed out, why spend the money to develop the CLX (or the Summit or Spire for that matter)?

This is as opposed to A/V Companies which are still privately owned by their Founders. It is hard not to feel that something is lost when the Founders cash out.

I think it's important to recall that the founder was "interested in selling the business to diversify his personal assets for estate planning purposes". That may not please everyone, but it is a prudent strategy to diversify risk. Not the only strategy mind you, but a prudent and understandable one nonetheless.

 

[Len44]

Not sure we have enough information to make that determination, even if profit maximization is now considered to be a "crime".

It very well ought to be a crime the way too many outfits do it. It's like they never even had a thought about the word "Balance."

To wax philosophical for a moment, the level of extremism we have seen in too many companies -- that is, "maximize profits in the near term and to hell long term viability, and everything else, for that matter..."

We've certainly all witnessed was too much of this here in the U.S. recently!

 

[Jungle Jack]

ML, with the greatest of respect, that's wild speculation. Cost of goods sold was probably significantly lower, but that doesn't translate automatically to net profit.



Not sure we have enough information to make that determination, even if profit maximization is now considered to be a "crime". In small manufacturing firms, profit maximization typically results in increased R&D budgets. And as you pointed out, why spend the money to develop the CLX (or the Summit or Spire for that matter)?



I think it's important to recall that the founder was "interested in selling the business to diversify his personal assets for estate planning purposes". That may not please everyone, but it is a prudent strategy to diversify risk. Not the only strategy mind you, but a prudent and understandable one nonetheless.

Hello,
Considering the majority of Dealers are now Magnolia A/V's inside Best Buy, I really would not consider it "wild speculation" to conclude that the Design Series are the majority of what has been sold.

Moreover, in no way am I saying that maximizing profits is a crime. I even said as much in my post. Obviously this is the goal of all Companies.

However you want to slice it, since the sale, replacement Panels have doubled, and almost all of the new products released lately have been non ESL in nature and more budget oriented. (Motion Series, Dynamo Series, SWT, etc)

I honestly believe ShoreView has leveraged the Martin Logan name and all it used to stand for to market Speakers having the only thing in common with earlier ESL's and the current Vista, Vantage, Spire, Summit X, and CLX being a logo.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
This is an except from a 2002 Brochure:
"Why do all MartinLogan speaker systems
reproduce each sound so accurately?
At the heart of every MartinLogan
speaker the patented curvilinear
electrostatic transducer lies an ultra-
thin transparent diaphragm. Driven by
charged electrons and weighing less
than the air it moves, the diaphragm is
so responsive it reproduces sound at
levels only associated with the finest
audio electronics.
With indistinguishably low distortion,
the patented MartinLogan diaphragm
precisely tracks the input signal, engages
the air, and transmits the audio signal
to your ear flawlessly. The ESL's low
distortion and curvilinear line source
combine to provide minimal room in-
teraction, detail, power, and clarity
unavailable any other way."

This is what ML used to be about. Only a select cadre of Dealers carried Martin Logan Speakers and they were Demonstrated with top notch Amplification and Sources. Now, many of these stores no longer carry the brand. There still are some traditional outlets, but the majority of Dealers in a given area are Magnolia A/V.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Sambob2]

High performance of any flavor is not mass produced with a goal of maximum profitability in mind...however it is a labor of love, creativity, and the best engineering. A high performance product is designed and sold to a select market of customers, some of us are in that select range of customers. For that select range no matter what the bandwidth, it is the output of that high performance product that yields the return. That product can be anything.

 

[FISH_MAN]

No, he was trying to provide an easy example so that you might understand the obvious: that increased sales does not necessarily equal increased profitability. Which is why it was not an oxymoron to say that it was a profitability issue and not a sales issue that was likely the basis of the production move. Even though ML increased sales, that does not mean they were able to remain profitable, or at least as profitable as Shoreview wants them to be.

If you have no interest in this topic, please stop trolling the thread with irrelevant comments.

I think if I said the sky was blue you would disagree with me Rich lol you make a lot of negative assumptions about Martin Logan Rich, I wounder where you get all of this negativity??? perhaps you don't even have a pair of your own.I think it's a bit low not to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Oh my,

As I said in a previous post, me thinks this is really going south.

GG

 

[Rich]

Fish, once again you spend more time disparaging other members than providing any real comment on the topic of the thread. It would appear that you are simply trying to pick an argument in order to get this thread closed, as was your earlier expressed wish. As I said before, if you have no interest in serious discussion of the subject matter of this post, then please stop TROLLING the thread.

As for my "credentials" which you call into doubt, don't forget that I have been a member of this forum for two years longer than you, I have attended the National get-togethers (both the original one in Lawrence and the one at RMAF last year), I have met all three of the moderators of this forum in person and consider them friends, I have taken the time and effort to visit with several other members at their homes, including Gordon Gray and Jonathan Foulkes, and I have provided more intelligent and insightful commentary on various topics on this forum than you could ever dream of.

 

[C.A.P]

As for my "credentials" which you call into doubt, don't forget that I have been a member of this forum for two years longer than you, I have attended the National get-togethers (both the original one in Lawrence and the one at RMAF last year), I have met all three of the moderators of this forum in person and consider them friends, I have taken the time and effort to visit with several other members at their homes, including Gordon Gray and Jonathan Foulkes, and I have provided more intelligent and insightful commentary on various topics on this forum than you could ever dream of.

OK, Rich is your arm getting sore from patting your self on the back. When one has to prove their worthiness and credability it becomes obvious

Dead topic. Debate, speculate all you want its beaten down and done like road kill.

 

[Double D]

I agree with C.A.P. it's time for TOM to step in and lock the thread... nothing good will be served by letting this dissolve into a peeing match..

Shoreview have made the decision.. the deed is done, how it plays out for future products, only time will tell.. if you love your panels.. then love'em for what they are, and enjoy the music they make. Look at this way, when time comes to move on, you can always flog them as a pair "still made in the USA"

 

[wink]

On a lighter note; I want to know how much they want for their sign in the front?

Dan

 

[sleepysurf]

You mean this one?

 

[Rich]

When one has to prove their worthiness and credability it becomes obvious

Chris, when someone directly calls my credibility into question, I will certainly defend it. I expect you would do the same.

Debate, speculate all you want its beaten down and done like road kill.

Thank you for granting us the "right" to debate and speculate all we want. As I have already said numerous times, if you and Fish and others don't find the topic interesting, then don't read the thread. Telling others they shouldn't be allowed to discuss something because you think it's already been discussed enough is just a little egotistical, is it not?

Now, can we please take this thread back on topic?

 

[Rich]

High performance of any flavor is not mass produced with a goal of maximum profitability in mind...however it is a labor of love, creativity, and the best engineering. A high performance product is designed and sold to a select market of customers, some of us are in that select range of customers. For that select range no matter what the bandwidth, it is the output of that high performance product that yields the return. That product can be anything.

This is so true, Sambob. And ultimately, this is why some of us are lamenting the changes at Martin Logan. Anytime you have had a long-term love affair with a high end product, you are likely to be disaffected when the company producing it transforms from a small family-owned company with limited focus into a large, mass-production, cost-cutting corporation that is simply a piece in someone's investment portfolio.

 

[wink]

You mean this one?

No, although that would be cool too...don't know where I would put that one...no, the one in the video that looks like a 1 inch thick laser cut aluminum maybe 3ft by 4 ft. It would look extremely cool in my theater room with a blue light behind it.

Dan

 

[mcmd]

This is so true, Sambob. And ultimately, this is why some of us are lamenting the changes at Martin Logan. Anytime you have had a long-term love affair with a high end product, you are likely to be disaffected when the company producing it transforms from a small family-owned company with limited focus into a large, mass-production, cost-cutting corporation that is simply a piece in someone's investment portfolio.

Rich, regrettably, it's just another "sign of the times". Wish it was different, but that's just not real-world.

One thing I might mention is while it certainly appears that ShoreView made the call on this move, it just might be the sober recognition of the ML "core" of managers/employees that saw the handwriting on the wall and actively chose the "lesser of two evils".

I can't imagine that this decision was made lightly by anyone given its significance, both in economic terms and in the minds of the faithful (that'd be us!).