McCain and Obama

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Now, having said all that nice stuff about unity and respect, I will go ahead and toot my own horn and remind you all that I predicted we had a possible landslide in the making way back in post #340 of this thread. It would appear that this prediction has come to pass. Although the popular vote is less than 5% difference, Obama has won an electoral college landslide.
Unity is nice to try for, much better than the divide caused by a duff in the Whitehouse which was not elected twice.

I predicted in several forums a 2:1 voter turn out for Obama based on a 2:1 (D:R) voter turnout in the primaries (60% new Dem voters). I later modified the prediction to be 2:1 (D:R) in the electorial college.

Had McCain chosen Romney as VP and won Michigan, and the wheels not fallen off the economy, things could have been much different.;)
 
1. In this new world with our technology and world economy the US can not be a lone wolf. We need other countries to succeed. We also need other countries to buy American goods which they don't, we need other countries to sell us oil which to keep prices low to stop hurting the working poor.

1a. We need to start to make relations with countries such as Iran to keep the world peaceful through talking and not through made up wars filled of lies a deceit of the American public.

2. If you look at history the senate's approval rating democrat or republican lingers well below 50%. The reason for this is because of its bipartisan politics.
The democrats cannot get anything through the senate because King Bush will veto it. Any news organization will tell you that the republicans are set to loose about 20 more seats in the house and 5 to 7 seats in the senate and those are conservative numbers. I do not think the Americans are placing blame on the newly elected democrats.

2a. Bush has the lowest approval rating of any president including Jimmy Carter in more than 65 years. He was put there by the people to uphold our ideals and make this country better. He has simply not done that and is the worst president in my lifetime (Yes Jimmy Carter was also terrible). Bush's big screw ups:
a. Iraq War
1. Took focus of Afghanistan
2. Did not find Bin Laden
b. Economy
1. A whole lot more poor people today
c. Katrina
d. Budget Deficit
e. Huge tax breaks to the richest 1%
f. Movement towards more censorship
g. Increase in poverty in the US.
1. Took school lunch programs away from poor kids
h. Environment policies or lack there of
ha. No effort into getting renewable energy resources
I. No Child Left Behind
J. Raised the tax credit for vehicles 6000 or larger for small business from 25k to 100k. Hence all the Hummers and Excursions on the road
k. Foreign Relations
l. I could go on for 100 more but I my fingers are getting tired

3. You already are saying that Obama would make poor Supreme Court choices. Don't make me bring up Harriet Myers who her own party did not even support. We have lawyers on this forum that were more qualified.

4. Obama Achievements:
A. Hope Act
b. The Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006
c. The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act
d. The 2007 Government Ethics Bill
e. The “Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy

I realize not all of these passed but I agree with all of them in principal and no I have not read them cover to cover to give you full disclosure.

Bush is the worst president in my lifetime nobody is a close second. Hopefully in November we do elect change as the motto says. I don't want this country in 100 years of war in the Middle East.

Besides Obama is going to destroy McCain in the debates and like I said before the gap will start to widen.

Right on! W was a Daddy's boy, that lacked the brain power to do the job...the dumbazz was arrogant to boot!
 
International reaction to the election has been mixed. The one that frightens me is that of Russian President Dmtry Medvedev

" Mechanisms must be created to block mistaken, egoistical and sometimes dangerous decisions of certain members of the international community." He said this while threatining to place missiles along the Polish border.

He could have been referring to anything or anyone...but the timing of his remark...the day after the election, makes it obvious to me that he was handing a warning to the new Prez elect, not Hugo Chavez.

Many members of the international community were alarmed when Obama made his comment during the debate that stated he would send troops across the Pakastani border without their consent. They remained silent because they did not want to try to influence the election. It's may now become apparent that some of that community may be made very uneasy by BO's election and lack of experience and common sense.
 
Last edited:
I do not think Obama is going to be the pushover that the democrats usually are such as Clinton. I think if you mess with him he is going to open a can of woop a*s on you !
 
International reaction to the election has been mixed. The one that frightens me is that of Russian President Dmtry Medvedev

Why does this frighten you? Medvedev has been talking smack ever since he took over, as Putin did before him. They have said more than a few things to Bush that went mostly unresponded. For that matter, their entire invasion of Georgia went mostly unresponded to by the Bush administration.

So why are you more fearful now that Obama is President? I fully expect we will hear some increased rhetoric from guys like Medvedev, Chavez, and Ahmadinejad, simply because they want to garner some publicity and make it look like they are taking a hard line to the new U.S. leader. I wouldn't pay them too much mind until they start acting in accordance with their words. Then again, with the deflation in oil prices, their economies are going to be hurting again real soon, so we will see how much bite they have compared to bark.
 
Perhaps it's just that the 8 years I spent in a very high level post on the JCS Crisis Action staff has taught me a few things about military postering, specifically "sabre ratteling" that most people would never consider, like it's timing, intent, the message it is really sending...which may not be obvious to the typical civilian.


It's just this sort of thing that worries the world:
I do not think Obama is going to be the pushover that the democrats usually are such as Clinton. I think if you mess with him he is going to open a can of woop a*s on you !
 
Last edited:
Jerry:

What I'm always curious about is what the guys like you know that the rest of us don't....

All I can do is hope for the best.
 
Perhaps it's just that the 8 years I spent in a very high level post on the JCS Crisis Action staff has taught me a few things about military postering, specifically "sabre ratteling" that most people would never consider, like it's timing, intent, the message it is really sending...which may not be obvious to the typical civilian.


It's just this sort of thing that worries the world:

It is beginning to sound to me like Obama will never be able to do anything right...in your eyes...:rolleyes:

On the one hand, you seem worried that Obama will be a pushover (due to some Russia "posturing") then worry that he might actually respond. :confused:

Given what we all have seen the last couple of years, Obama seems far more intelligent, far more measured, and far less prone to carelessly "provoke" another country than probably 99.9 percent of the population...including (OK, especially including) the present administration.

He's an incredibly smart individual, with more than average street-smarts.

And I think we ALL ought to give our new President-elect a chance, before we launch pre-emptive attacks on him. Heck, he hasn't even been sworn in yet.

(While I won't go there, If this were Bush that was being criticized, the extreme right-wing nut-balls (like Rush) would be all over the place screaming "Un-American! Unpatriotic to criticize the President! Disloyal to America!)
 
I think Obama may prove to be more conservative than people expect. He had to keep along party lines in order to fast track and build his base. His organization was tight. He seems to be a good manager, Joe Biden was the best choice for running mate. I believe he wants the best and the brightest on his staff. I liked Chuck Hagel's view on the war, and it seems Obama and he, hit it off well. If he pushes for a line item veto and gets it...that will demonstrate his managing skill. He did defeat both Clinton and Republican machines, to get to where he is now. I hope he governs with as much intelligence as he has shown so far. I do believe bottom up economics is the best solution to a speedier recovery. As far as I can tell...we need to pull a third of our troops out of Iraq, and send them to Afghanistan. Of course Iraq must remain stable. I think splitting the oil wealth evenly between factions is key to stable government in Iraq. All factions should have something to lose if they can't get it together on oil production, and profits.
 
Jerry:

What I'm always curious about is what the guys like you know that the rest of us don't....

All I can do is hope for the best.

That's all we really can do. As far as the knowledge thing goes, someday we'll have a long phonecon about it. Give me a call at your leasure.
 
Last edited:
Some of you may like this:
 

Attachments

  • The Kandidates.jpg
    The Kandidates.jpg
    60.5 KB
He's an incredibly smart individual, with more than average street-smarts.

I'll remind you that Jimmy Carter is an incredibly smart individual ...and he emasculated us.

Bill Clinton is an incredibly smart individual and he did even worse.

And I'm not picking on them because the are Democrats...but because they were equivocators.

JFK was not so smart an individual yet he had wisdom and experience, a smart brother, and a little Irish luck and he changed the world.

Ronald Regan was not so smart an individual, yet he changed the world. And I'm not saying that because he was a Republican, but because it is the truth.

I find it interesting that I transcribe a statement of fact that is in the press all over the place, and a number of you twist it into looking like it is me that is attacking.Do you want to know what I think and feel?......I actually feel sorry for the dude.....why...because he is backed into a corner and most everyone now has very high expectations of him and if he doesn't deliver you will be very dissapointed. Unlike many of you I haven't deified him in my mind so I have little or no expectations of him, therefore, if he does deliver it will be great, but if he doesn't deliver, I won't be all that surprised.
 
Last edited:
Congratulations, President-elect Obama.

Ugh. Been sick as a dog with a horrible flu bug since Monday
afternoon. Missed the entire election media-fest. Well I
didn't miss it, per se. I did vote Tues morn, but then
I crawled back into bed not to emerge until today. Only
at about 50% capacity right now.

The only surprise for me was that the popular spread was
wider than expected. I thought 3% would be the max
spread, but it looks more like 6% to 7%.

There was practically zero third-party votes, as I expected.
The days of throw-away "protest votes" are likely gone for
the time being.

As expected, me and Rich's state (and county) was roughly
a 60-40 win for McCain. Lots of engineers and scientists in
our area, plus military, all generally conservative voters.
The color-coded county maps will be interesting to view
compared to the last two elections. So far, it looks much
the same: lots of reddish-orange with blots of dark blue
in population-dense counties.

Also as expected, lots more ACORN fraud reported all over.
Probably need RICO law applied to these <insert vulgar
perjorative>. Interesting to see what happens here given
Obama's clear conflict of interest.

Predictions? Bleh! I'll at least give him a chance. We'll see
what "change" ends up meaning.

The Onion: Obama Win Causes Obsessive Supporters To Realize How Empty Their Lives Are
 
I'll remind you that Jimmy Carter is an incredibly smart individual ...and he emasculated us.

Really? How so? Because he had the balls to actually DO something (rescue the hostages -- that is, trying to bring them out ALIVE, instead of just doing that "bombs away" thing)?:rolleyes:

Yeah, things didn't work out, which is why General Jones demanded (and got) the reorganization of JCS to better serve out Country. Those inter-service rivalries pretty much did in the rescue attempt (every service just HAD to participate, you know)...:(

Bill Clinton is an incredibly smart individual and he did even worse.

WHAT???
:wtf: He did great! Oh, wait...yeah, he was a...[Gasp!] a Democrat. Even worse -- a Liberal!!!

But, look at the shape our Country was in at the end of Clinton's term, compared to what we have now.:eek:

BTW, I see that you were very careful not to mention George Bush... :rolleyes:

And I'm not picking on them because the are Democrats...but because they were equivocators.

So, how do fail to criticize George Bush for this??? AND, Clinton I will give you the point -- but NOT Carter. Good Grief!!!

JFK was not so smart an individual yet he had wisdom and experience, a smart brother, and a little Irish luck and he changed the world.

Like most, I think of JFK as a great Prez -- but also very, very bright, and perhaps the best prepared to be President up to that time (Obama probably surpasses Kennedy in that regard).

Ronald Regan was not so smart an individual, yet he changed the world. And I'm not saying that because he was a Republican, but because it is the truth.

Well, I certainly don't think Reagan was a dummy. And Nancy was pretty darn smart herself... And FWIW I thought he was a very good President.

I find it interesting that I transcribe a statement of fact that is in the press all over the place, and a number of you twist it into looking like it is me that is attacking.Do you want to know what I think and feel?......I actually feel sorry for the dude.....why...because he is backed into a corner and everuyone now has very high expectations of him.

Well, the sympathy is nice, I guess. But why don't we wait and see what he is able to achieve, and not pre-judge him. You are quite right -- expectations ARE high. I suspect he's going to be a terrific President!

I honestly do not see where I "twisted" anything. Your meaning was clear. You did not -- what was the word? Ah, yes, you did not "equivocate."
 
Third party candidates vote percentages up ~mid teens from 2004,
Total electorate voter turn out, 61%, equal to 2004 + population rise.
 
Third party candidates vote percentages up ~mid teens from 2004...

Beakman, could you cite a source? All the numbers I see
place Barr, Nader, and Baldwin combined at around 1%
which is insignificant. Perot got about 19% in 1992,
while Nader got about 3% in 2000, and about 0.4% in
2004. Are we talking about the same thing?
 
Beakman, could you cite a source? All the numbers I see
place Barr, Nader, and Baldwin combined at around 1%
which is insignificant. Perot got about 19% in 1992,
while Nader got about 3% in 2000, and about 0.4% in
2004. Are we talking about the same thing?
It was a link on a link I can't remember now, but here is the paper I believe was used:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/11/06/pdf.gansre08turnout.au.pdf
Plus we're not talking percentage of total votes cast but percentage change (increase) in the number of votes cast for the party represented by the aforementioned 3 "independant" candidates.
 
Last edited:
Please read my post over. The Department of Defense is the ADMINISTRATIVE function of the military...and yes SecDef does excersize control of the administration of the military, but not the OPERATION COMMAND AND CONTROL which is the Defense Department...a different chain, outsiders are often puzzeled and think DoD and the Defense Department are one and the same.

Nope. With all due respect, I assure you I have the competence to fully understand what you suggest above. I just think the concept is,as some might say, "not entirely accurate." :D

The Secretary of Defense official duties are not limited only to administrative functions...

If you read my post you would see that it took 5 days of schooling (and about six months ojt) for me to understand the organization. There is no textbook.

Hopefully this link will help. The solid flowchart lines are the administrative control, the dashes are the Operational control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_National_Command.png

Let me try to give an example of the way this works

President Orders "Bomb Bagdad" ...orders are sent to the Operational Chain thu JCS to the Joint Commander. JCS develops the plan to bomb using an aircraft carrier in conjunction with the Joint commander and goes up thru the administrative chain to SecDef requesting additional aircraft parts and 500,000 gals of avgas to support the operation. JCS member CNO (Chief of Naval Operations) orders the USS Neversail into position in the Persian Gulf. SecDef orders Navairsyscom to supply the parts and Navalex (logistics command) to supply the gasoline and provides funding for each organization. Field Commander decides he needs additional troops for mop up operations so he goes up his administrative chain to SecDef who orders NavPers to transfer 500 marines from Quantico to the "theater of operations" SecDef simultaneously orders Bupers to activate 500 Marine
reserves to backfill Quantico's losses. and then orders Transport Command to Fly the Marines to the theater...have I lost you yet?

No, you didn't lose me. Again, I fully understand what you suggest...

As I said in my earlier post there have been attempts by SecDef ( noteably Rumsfeld)to increase authority and gain more power thru administrative directive....but the chart shows how the law has it set up. Current law prohibits either the SecDef or the Chairman JCS from having executive (operational) control over the combatant forces, hypothetically, this helps to prevent a military takeover of the US Government. That's why only the President can issue orders directly to the operatiional forces, but they go "through" the SecDef or The JCS. Policy and Command Control are two different things. Example of Policy: Don't fire until fired upon.

Interestingly, after extensive searching, I have been unable to find ANY official source that lends credence to the concept you espouse. On the other hand, my research did turn up a slew of references -- including official United States Department of Defense sources -- and charts that show the Secretary of Defense is indeed included in the operational chain of command.

To cite just one example:

THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE

"The Department of Defense (DoD) (DoD Directive 5100.1) is responsible for providing the military forces needed to deter war and protect the security of the United States. The major elements of these forces are the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps. Under the President, who is also Commander-in-Chief, the Secretary of Defense exercises authority, direction, and control over the Department which includes the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, three Military Departments, nine Unified Combatant Commands, the DoD Inspector General, fifteen Defense Agencies, and seven DoD Field Activities. (See DoD chart.)"

"The Secretary of Defense is the principal defense policy advisor to the President and is responsible for the formulation of general defense policy and policy related to all matters of direct and primary concern to the DoD, and for the execution of approved policy. Under the direction of the President, the Secretary exercises authority, direction, and control over the Department of Defense."

-http://www.defenselink.mil/odam/omp/pubs/GuideBook/DoD.htm

The wikipedia source you cite above hardly provides a clear depiction of the process. It easily subject to differing interpretations. And, of course, it is certainly not official. As someone who has developed many org charts (and reorganized a number of large-scale military functions), please be assured I fully grasp the chain of command flow. It might also be noted that many believe that the so-called "dotted-line authority" is a sign of a compromised (or weak) organizational concept.

In any case, do you have ANY -- just one -- OFFICIAL United States / Military / SecDef / Defense Department / DOD source that supports this, umm, interesting view [that the President issues orders directly
to the JCS and/or Unified Commands?

For further United States Law regarding all of this, careful review of the Goldwater-Nichols Act might be instructive.

"By the Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986, Congress clarified the command line to the combatant commanders and preserve civilian control of the military. The Act states that the operational chain of command runs from the President to the Secretary of Defense to the combatant commanders."

Another thought just occurred to me: when exactly did you go through this five-day course? Maybe this difference all has to do with timing and changes in the law defining how things are organized.

Perhaps, too, we are getting a bit tangled up with the words "through" and "to." My primary thrust was that the Secretary of Defense is not, in fact, bypassed even in operational matters -- which is what I understood you to be saying...
 

Latest posts

Back
Top