Lifetime Service for MartinLogan Products

[MrBT]

After replacing a couple of parts in my Vistas(panels, psu, woofers, some plastic) in the past I started wandering: Why these parts are relatively on the cheaper side. Come on! I even started thinking it would be cheaper building speaker from parts .
Now I have Summit and when time comes I will pay $2500 for panels for $12000 retail price speakers because it will stll be more reasonable than buying different speaker that would match or outclass Summits.

 

[Bernard]

Hm. Let's have a look at the flip side to the coin.

I think there's a possibility people are being way too harsh here.

What has ML done with OUR Justin?

 

[MOON]

Hi User 211,
I understand inflation and a need to keep up with it. I can't beleive Martin Logan was so in the dark before that they would take a $1850 loss on a set of CLS replacement panels as they used to charge $900., now it's $2750. I can understand their reasons for a price increase, it just seems a bit too much.

 

[Len44]

The sudden and no notice aspects of this very significant price increase makes it appear to be arbitrary and capricious. If nothing else, ML should have learned by now that their heretofore loyal customer base does not like surprises, especially when there is the appearance of "having the rug pulled out from under them."

A little consideration, providing ADVANCE NOTICE of pending price increases, MIGHT have helped. I swear, the new ML leadership just seems SO asleep at the switch...

 

[JayGee]

Hm. Let's have a look at the flip side to the coin.

I think there's a possibility people are being way too harsh here. Isn't the main problem the sudden radical tripling of price for, say, the CLS panels? And isn't it possible that the reason for that is that the original ML hadn't been maintaining price rises in line with inflation?

After all, if the CLS were sold today as a contemporary design, I've no doubt it'd cost over $20,000. Therefore, replacements panels at $2750 really is NOT unreasonable.

I've also been talking to someone about perforating sheet metal by laser. It IS expensive - more so than you would think. Add to that the coating, the labour, the overheads of a factory and employees, and the special machinery required (OK - they already have it but it is still wear and tear) and I'm not so sure that prices are that bad.

Also, ML users are fortunate they can eplace the panels themselves so there are no labour costs. Can't do that with a Maggie or other planars or even some ESLs.

Just a few valid points, I think.

As the owner of a manufacturing company, I can understand that someone may have ignored the rising costs and did not simultaneously increase the selling cost to compensate. However, if in that position, you cannot risk alienating your customers with a huge increase in cost. You should acknowledge that it was your mistake and gradually increase costs or send a message to your customers that you will hold current pricing for a specified period of time to allow those needing to purchase, to do so now. You may still alienate some, but you will have demonstrated empathy for the position of your customers.

I have dealt with Scotty Wenzel and I respect Scotty, however his response to this issue was both misguided and condescending.

 

[User211]

What has ML done with OUR Justin?

What are you saying Bernard? BTW: sold my Descent yesterday - no longer an ML owner

 

[User211]

As the owner of a manufacturing company, I can understand that someone may have ignored the rising costs and did not simultaneously increase the selling cost to compensate. However, if in that position, you cannot risk alienating your customers with a huge increase in cost. You should acknowledge that it was your mistake and gradually increase costs or send a message to your customers that you will hold current pricing for a specified period of time to allow those needing to purchase, to do so now. You may still alienate some, but you will have demonstrated empathy for the position of your customers.

I have dealt with Scotty Wenzel and I respect Scotty, however his response to this issue was both misguided and condescending.

I think I agree with your sentiments.

 

[amey01]

What has ML done with OUR Justin?

What has ML done alright?

That's a nice way to justify it Justin - maybe you should work for a marketing department. In the end, you know it's wrong. I know it's wrong.

As I hinted at in my earlier email - what you say holds some truth for regular spare parts. But a consumable like the panels? No effing way. They need to be replaced at whim. That's like saying you shouldn't complain that it costs $20,000 to re-fuel your Ferrari, since the Ferrari cost $530,000 new, $20,000 for a refuel is a small cost to keep it going. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Fortunately for ML - panels are probably the cheapest "spare part" to produce because they utilise full common materials/tooling/production techniques with the current lineup. All coming from a cheaper, cost-saving factory in Canada.

That is the reason why there is no excuse. None at all.

 

[Horchem1972]

Maybe this is their way of doing a backwards price increase. When they were going to discontinue the panels, they received a rush of orders.Then after all the orders were received they decided to continue support. Maybe they will come back and say due to the backlash they will roll the prices back to say $2400 for CLS panels. Therefore they will try and look like good guys again, but still be able to do a price increase. Other than the CLS models you can use an outboard crossover. Not ideal but the speakers will still function. I sure wish someone like Roger Sanders would decide to take over the panel business.Hint, Hint!!! I could even justify the $3000 price tag if they would give a lifetime warranty on the panels to the original owner. Everyone here believes that their price increase reasons are a line of BS. Either way Paralogan needs to stop playing games.

 

[User211]

What has ML done alright?

That's a nice way to justify it Justin - maybe you should work for a marketing department. In the end, you know it's wrong. I know it's wrong.

As I hinted at in my earlier email - what you say holds some truth for regular spare parts. But a consumable like the panels? No effing way. They need to be replaced at whim. That's like saying you shouldn't complain that it costs $20,000 to re-fuel your Ferrari, since the Ferrari cost $530,000 new, $20,000 for a refuel is a small cost to keep it going. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Fortunately for ML - panels are probably the cheapest "spare part" to produce because they utilise full common materials/tooling/production techniques with the current lineup. All coming from a cheaper, cost-saving factory in Canada.

That is the reason why there is no excuse. None at all.

It's time for a change, Adam. Tis obvious you're not happy. Sell up, move on... some good speakers out there.

My post did make some valid points. I just thought the onslaught was getting a bit out out of hand, really.

 

[amey01]

My post did make some valid points. I just thought the onslaught was getting a bit out out of hand, really.

It was not getting out of hand. I guess the onslaught was commensurate with the sentiment.

I guess I'll have to have another listen to those ADAM Tensor Gammas and see if I could live with them.........

 

[husaskin]

I understand gradual increase in price, say from $700 to $900. Then go up a little high each year. What ML has done is the price went up to $1300 overnight for SL3 panels, without any announcement. As I had mentioned earlier, they charge $750 for one SL3 woofer, but you can get the same one for $110 at Madisound. They are trying to kill off their legacy products so they can sell more new ones. But what about the resale value? Who would spend for the high premium when the resale value is so low??

 

[PeterK]

I have been seriously considering a set of Montis and a center. As I am nearing retirement, I am willing to pay a premium for my last set of speakers to get the best quality sound I can. The issue is that I just don't see having to pay a panel replacement cost in 10 years or so that might be $3000 or even far more while in retirement income mode. Guess that this built in maintenance cost will push me to other choices.

 

[jmschnur]

These panels typically last 15 years or much more with proper care ( vacuuming, AC , etc) . I really do not see the issue as a major one .

Also it would be interesting to hear about any changes that ML has made to give even more longevity .


We know the older panels are very expensive now but..

What is the current cost of a replacement Montis panel?


J

 

[Horchem1972]

These panels typically last 15 years or much more with proper care ( vacuuming, AC , etc) . I really do not see the issue as a major one.

You do not see an issue with countless lies from Martin Logan and a 333% price increase on the panels.The panels typically do not last 15 years, it is usually less.I would bet that if you measure a new panel versus a 15 year old one there would be a differance. I would not argue so much about $3000 panels if they had a lifetime warranty such as Roger Sanders does. Explain to me how a small company such as Rogers can repair or produce parts for every speaker he has developed but a larger corporation cannot? You will never convince me that Martin Logan pays more for parts then Roger Sanders does. Remember it is not just the panels but the discontinued support of parts so that the panels and rest of the speaker is not worthless.Please explain to me why they have lied about support for all legacy products, which has been proven to be false.

 

[User211]

Just thought of another neg I am afraid. You don't ever really need new panels. Tis only the mylar and coating that fail. Therefore, you should really be able to send your existing ones back for a re-skin - lest you have damaged them by some other means.

Soz - but this is surely true.

 

[amey01]

Just thought of another neg I am afraid. You don't ever really need new panels. Tis only the mylar and coating that fail. Therefore, you should really be able to send your existing ones back for a re-skin - lest you have damaged them by some other means.

Soz - but this is surely true.

May well be true in theory, but do ML offer this service? Maybe they should, although shipping back panels from Australia (or the UK) might be a bit of a show-stopper.

The panels typically do not last 15 years, it is usually less.

This is sometime true and sometimes not true. The point is - why is the OP (jmschnur) considering paying a premium and buying ML in the first place? Because he expects damn perfect performance, that's why. And if those panels show any sign of age/degredation, he will want to replace those panels when he sees fit.

He is not going to pay a big premium for ML, just so he can put up with speakers with rolled off highs and degraded panels in 10 years time. Forget it.

 

[jmschnur]

I priced out a repair for my 30 year old B&W 801s. It was much more than the price that I paid for them then. So I went with the Montis, using the B&W for casual listening.

I am afraid I have lower expectations for the life of electronics and the companies that make them than you.

I have gotten my Hafler 200 to last 29 years with good maintenance . My Lexicon DC-1 is still limping along . My Carver 1.5t needed repair and I got a third party to repair it. That option is apparently not available now.

My Bryson 4b amp is still humming along.

So I hope my Montis will last for 15 years or so with proper attention . When they begin to lose their luster , I will consider options.




However it is not clear to me that Martin Logan will be in business then , so my options may be more limited that I would like.

A 300% price increase is certainly unreasonable in a one year period. If it causes ML to lose a lot of business then perhaps they will change their business model.

However I am not surprised by the world of business these days.

Who knows what the future will bring.


J

 

[Bernard]

What are you saying Bernard? BTW: sold my Descent yesterday - no longer an ML owner

Justin, I was just thinking that you had been switched for the ML Justin

I have noticed a drop in the HF of my 12-year old panels, so a call to my dealer to find out the price of new panels is in order. I'll post the price here when I find out.

It certainly sounds like ML is shooting themselves in the foot while doing the hokey-pokey with us.

 

[Horchem1972]

I priced out a repair for my 30 year old B&W 801s. It was much more than the price that I paid for them then. So I went with the Montis, using the B&W for casual listening.

The differance with the 801's is you can still get parts. Many of the ML legacy products parts have been discontinued even though Martin Logan stated that all legacy products will always be serviced. Therefore it was a blatant and outright lie to pacify members untill a later date. Many of us have been through numerous ML models to achieve the sound we prefer and do not appreciate being lied to. Every product you listed I believe can still be serviced by the manufacturer except the Hafler and Carver amps. If you go to Carveraudio.com Bob Carver himself will repair the Carver and Sunfire products at very reasonable prices. Not one of your examples will deem a speaker or amp worthless. Try repairing an esl speaker without panels,crossovers or the electronics to power them. That is the main reason for the anger many members have with ML right now.