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Excellent info, Rob. It is appreciated. Also Justin for pursuing the matter and getting some answers.

That being said, it should be obvious to everyone by now -- INCLUDING ML leaders -- that they could have easily saved themselves a TON of grief if they had used a little logic and put themselves in the shoes of their customers. Justin, I think should get the powers that be to review the response by Rich. All his points are valid, but #3 and #4 should have been the proverbial "no-brainers." I mean, Really? ML leadership couldn't figure out the reaction this would generate?

I wonder what color the sky is on the planet where they reside...
 
Yep - please answer all questions.

I think we've all been/are being very fair and pragmatic in all of this.

If you want to know what I really think, then ML produce some very expensive speakers that rely on the continual supply of a consumable part in order to be "fit for purpose". If they want to collect that sort of money from new sales (and continue to do so) then it is their responsibility to ensure supply of the consumable parts!! This side of the business should be considered an expense to support the sales side.

So that's my opinion. I haven't said that before because as I said - I'm being pragmatic and fair.

But enough is enough.
 
Thanks for being patient as I gathered up some information regarding panel pricing & answers to questions about materials. All roads on my quest for knowledge led me to Rob Zimmerman. For those that haven't had the pleasure of meeting Rob, he's been working at MartinLogan for 21 years, led the production team building stat panels, and has been one of the main procurers of raw materials used in each stat panel model over the years. To say it quite simply, his word is the authority when it comes to all things regarding the materials and procedures MartinLogan uses for electrostatic panel production.

Currently Rob is our Operations Manager, and among his many duties he oversees service panel production here in Lawrence, and is a stickler for maintaining the precise, original standards for building all legacy panels. He often randomly pops his head in the service room to double/triple test panels before they go out.

I asked Rob last week to look over the questions and concerns raised in this thread, and below are his very detailed responses (thanks Rob!).

~Justin


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the price increase on service parts across the board

All MartinLogan products are designed and tested from the ground up with the highest quality materials and parts available. Each and every component that goes into the making of a MartinLogan speaker is critical to the performance of our products. Alternative suppliers, less expensive raw materials and less reliable component parts are almost always available. However, compromising quality to save money has never been an option that we have considered as viable.

For over fifteen years, MartinLogan has experienced annual price increases from all of our suppliers without passing along those increases to our customers for service parts. We can no longer absorb these additional costs and continue to provide the level of service that we have come to be known for in the industry. Our strong commitment to our customers requires that we must, to the best of our ability, continue to maintain the quality level of all of our current manufacturing and replacement parts.

Important Facts Regarding MartinLogan Custom Perforated Metal

The raw material required is of an uncommon and expensive formulation

  • This is due to our need to achieve the correct malleability characteristics in order to be able to hand form the stats into the perfect curve.
  • We must achieve the proper dielectric relationship between all of the components (tape, diaphragm and metal) in each stat panel, which is different between models, this is especially true with legacy panels as we learned and improved over the years.

Machine setup time and inspection process
  • In order for our supplier to produce perforated metal to the exacting quality standards we require, the machine setup time is lengthy and expensive. The additional processes involved require a highly skilled machine operator to insure minimal rework and defects.
  • MartinLogan closely inspects uncoated metal to insure consistency of hole pattern alignment, overall shear size and border width. All of these factors must remain consistent from batch to batch or the metal is rendered useless.

ML perforated metal manufacturing processes

The manufacturer of perforated metal designed specifically for MartinLogan stat panels requires several non-traditional (and therefore expensive) processes to meet our unusually high quality standards. Here are a few:

  • Tightly controlled feed rates (feed rates insure consistent hole alignment).
  • Specific shearing guidelines (shearing is critical to insure size and hole alignment consistency from piece to piece).
  • Additional leveling and rolling steps (MartinLogan stat metal is required to be flatter than the typically accepted industry standards for perforated metal).

Shelf life of raw perforated metal

  • All metal oxidizes over time. We require our supplier to coat our perforated metal with liberal amounts of the most rust-inhibiting substance known which prolongs the shelf life of the “raw” metal until we need to proceed with the powder coating/insulating processes. The rust inhibitor is an expensive coating but is required in order to insure oxidation-free raw material at the time of powder coating. However, even with a rust-inhibitor, after a certain amount of time passes the raw metal will oxidize beyond acceptable limits and be unusable.

Important Facts Regarding MartinLogan Custom Tape/Adhesive Materials

Adhesives and adhesive carriers are designed into the performance of each stat panel and cannot be substituted between models without affecting the performance

  • Each particular type of adhesive (and its related carrier material) has its own dielectric properties, which affect stat panel performance dramatically and varies between models, especially in legacy products.
  • The sheer strength if each type of adhesive is taken into account in the design phase of each stat panel and can not be "substituted" with different adhesives.
  • The thickness, width and coverage of adhesives all play a critical role in the output of the stat panel.

Electronic components are crafted based on the performance characteristics of our adhesives

  • Each MartinLogan speaker model’s particular electronic crossover and individual power supply is designed (from inception) based upon how a particular adhesive affects and interacts with the perforated metal and diaphragm components contained within the stat panel.
  • The adhesives we use have changed over the years, but because of the above factor, MartinLogan must use the precise original adhesive and adhesive carrier to insure consistent performance throughout the life of the speaker.

Manufacturing and Slitting of Custom MartinLogan Adhesives

  • The adhesives and related adhesive carrier materials that MartinLogan chooses are of the highest quality and are therefore quite expensive to manufacture. To describe it only as "tape" is highly inaccurate.
  • Adhesive manufacturers require minimum purchases in order to most effectively utilize their base materials (typically either master rolls or master sheets).
  • MartinLogan’s tight width and thickness tolerances require high-grade base material that cannot always be slit/cut without several additional (and therefore expensive) steps in the process to insure consistency.

Shelf Life of Adhesives and Adhesive Carriers

  • When purchasing adhesives at quantities sufficient to the manufacturing needs of current products, shelf life is not an issue since inventory is replenished regularly. When a product becomes officially discontinued, usage drops significantly. Shelf life is then an issue as certain adhesives (which are not all the same) may reach a point where their properties and characteristics are unacceptable for new manufacturing.
  • MartinLogan’s adhesive suppliers (as mentioned above) continue to require minimum purchase quantities. This means that MartinLogan must discard some of our older adhesives from time to time and reorder newly manufactured material, which has the proper performance characteristics.

Regarding refurbishing panels

The concept of refurbishing panels isn't a new one, and something we've tested in the past, but it's simply something that does not provide consistent results. The tolerances and specifications we use are exact, and pulling, prying or bending the stat panel metal even slightly calls into question future reliability and consistency with the performance that a refurbished panel might have. Because the adhesives we use essentially create a permanent bond, using releasing agents, sharp knives, scrappers, or any other method to release that bond simply yields results not acceptable to our very high quality standards, especially when it comes to the most important part of the speaker, the electrostatic panel.

Other Important notes about stat adhesives and metal

Overall, products designed using specific adhesives and adhesive carriers must maintain that component make up during the life of the product. Any change in adhesives and/or adhesive carriers will require a complete redesign of the product from the ground up.

Where the stat metal is concerned, all of the aforementioned material specifications and process requirements exceed most acceptable industry standards. This drives up the cost of MartinLogan’s perforated metal considerably. Our suppliers demand a premium for implementation of each of these higher specifications and processes in manufacturing, and while these costs have risen consistently over the past 15 years, we've done our best to absorb those costs.

Also, MartinLogan’s costs go up exponentially when we are forced to order in smaller quantities (after a product is discontinued), and the raw metal materials we use for current panels has changed considerably from past generations of panels. When volume declines on our purchase orders to our metal and adhesive suppliers for these legacy products, we can always expect to see a price increase. It is not uncommon to experience a price increase of twenty to fifty times what we would normally pay for the same components purchased at higher quantities. In fact, in some cases, our suppliers will simply not provide price quotes for the smaller quantities that we require.

Final thoughts

Our commitment to providing outstanding customer service isn't something we take lightly, and while not everyone will agree with decisions we make, I hope this sheds some light on some of the complexity involved when making these difficult decisions.

All the best,
Rob Zimmerman

Justin,

Thanks for posting that very well written reply. Mr Zimmerman should be congratulated on his response.

Edwin.
 
I've laid out the facts from Rob who's been at this for 21 years, and while we could continue this "debate" forever, I'm afraid this is as much information as I can provide you on the subject.

Justin,
Thanks for posting that very well written reply. Mr Zimmerman should be congratulated on his response.

Thanks and agreed, I wasn't expecting so much detail! I will pass this along to Rob.

~Justin
 
I've laid out the facts from Rob who's been at this for 21 years, and while we could continue this "debate" forever, I'm afraid this is as much information as I can provide you on the subject.

Thanks, Justin. But ultimately, this isn't a debate. It is a bunch of your loyal long-term customers who have promoted your brand for years being dissatisfied with the direction that the new corporate owners are taking the brand and recognizing that they are putting profit motive above everything else. Every step they have taken in the last few years points in this direction, from firing people like Jim Power, to moving production to Canada, to deciding to discontinue support for legacy models, to then jacking up prices on replacement panels (which ultimately has the same effect of discontinuing support for legacy models). Not to mention the dilution of the high end brand name built over decades by the addition of cheap home theater speakers and now ear buds. As far as Rob's information above, my last point about the electromotion costing less than replacement panels for the Summits pretty well negates much of what he wrote. While I appreciate his efforts to justify the recent price increases for replacement panels, the truth is obvious that the only justification for this is pure profit motive with no regard for the loyalty of past customers. Because of this, for many people on this forum and elsewhere, the speakers they own now will be the last thing they will ever buy from Martin Logan. Simple as that.
 
Sorry you feel that way Rich -- change is hard, for everyone. I'm proud we've been able to create products that more people can afford like the Motion Series, that have ridiculously good performance vs competitors at those price points, while still maintaining our high-end electrostatic products (like the Montis we just launched last year, and more fun stuff on the way over the next few years). But, I had a sneaking suspicion that even presented with the facts that you had already made up your mind.

~Justin
 
Do any of you think for one second that ML will actually cave in and say, "OK, we have been A-- ROGERING you for a while and now we will lower our prices because you caught us" NOPE, NOTTA not gonna happen !They dont care about Legacy products as they are a threat to new sales. GREED GREED GREED !
 
2. Why prices of panels of even the newer speakers, like the Summit or CLX, have also doubled.
This is one question that Rob side-stepped.

Justin, I would really like to see it addressed. Or, have we got the facts wrong, and the prices have not doubled?
 
Justin, why was notice not given for the panel price increase to existing ML owners? You couldn't post a thread on this site "Replacement panel price increase in 90 days" and give customers a chance at the previous pricing? It's not rocket science!
 
Justin, why was notice not given for the panel price increase to existing ML owners? You couldn't post a thread on this site "Replacement panel price increase in 90 days" and give customers a chance at the previous pricing? It's not rocket science!

Good suggestion, I've advised our management team to consider doing that with any future pricing decisions.

Thanks,
~Justin
 
But, I had a sneaking suspicion that even presented with the facts that you had already made up your mind.

~Justin

Perhaps. But had you provided facts that truly supported the idea that this was a necessary price increase to recoup money lost on replacement panel sales, rather than just a bold attempt at squeezing profit out of customer service and driving sales of newer models, I might have changed my mind. None of the "facts" Rob provided supports that notion. The fact that management doesn't want to touch any of my follow-up questions reinforces the argument. Again, if panels are so darned expensive to produce, why are the Electromotions so darn inexpensive? The entire speaker can be had for less than you are charging for replacement panels for my Summit. This calls into question Rob's entire narrative explanation.

As for your "sneaking suspicion" that I had already made up my mind . . . don't forget your title at Martin Logan. Your entire job is to make the company look good no matter what, so everything you say on this forum has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. As I recall, you defended the shutdown of legacy model support by offering the "explanation" that parts for up to ten different models were no longer available, but then there was no more mention of that excuse when management did a double-take and changed their mind after the uproar on this forum by me and others. Suddenly, support for only one model, the Logos, was hampered by unavailability of parts. The "facts" you provided to support management's decision in that case turned out to be less than honest. Your current explanations appear the same.
 
Good suggestion, I've advised our management team to consider doing that with any future pricing decisions.

Thanks,
~Justin

Future pricing decisions dos not address the matter at hand, it just ignores or side steps it. How much more can you really raise panel prices, since they have already tripled overnight? It would be nice if you answer all of the questions instead of selecting only certain ones.
 
ML is losing credibility by the day. Mr. Zimmerman's response, however well versed, makes no reference to dollar figures, nor does it answer all the questions raised. My MLs are still the last ones.
 
Unfortunately for Justin, I think it's time to reload the six shooter.

How many bullets can one foot (or two feet) take anyway? ;)

I think he's done the best he can do under the circumstances but it seems obvious to me that this forum is not going to get the response(s) that the members want and, frankly, deserve.

And ML high end sales and their previous supporters (and support thereof), will be left to the wayside.

Quite sad.

GG
 
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Good suggestion, I've advised our management team to consider doing that with any future pricing decisions.

Thanks,
~Justin

NO, DAMNIT!!! This Needs to be retroactive! This was a horrendous mistake!

If I had "leader" who worked for me and made a decision like this one, he or she would probably not be very happy. Because they would have to fix it, to make things right. I'm surprised heads haven't already rolled.
 
[Why prices of panels of even the newer speakers, like the Summit or CLX, have also doubled] is one question that Rob side-stepped.

Justin, I would really like to see it addressed. Or, have we got the facts wrong, and the prices have not doubled?

I would like this question answered - and not ignored - by Justin.

Justin - you answered a different question than this one that came from the same post made by Rich, so I am sure that you saw the question. However by editing the question out of your response, and giving no acknowledgement of it, you are ignoring the question.
 
I've laid out the facts from Rob who's been at this for 21 years, and while we could continue this "debate" forever, I'm afraid this is as much information as I can provide you on the subject.

~Justin

Debate??

This certainly isn't a debate.

We are a group of fastidious people who have invested a LOT of money in your products.

We now feel:
1. exploited; and
2. we perceive we are being lied to (we have very good grounds for this, which is clear to see)

We just want some answers to some questions.
 
This is one question that Rob side-stepped.

Justin, I would really like to see it addressed. Or, have we got the facts wrong, and the prices have not doubled?

Lies, lies, lies. But Bernard - yes you have your facts wrong - prices have TREBLED, not doubled - they've gone up by nearly 200%!
 
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