amey01
Well-known member
Stupid suggestion (sorry Churchill) - forewarning of ripoff does not justify the subsequent ripoff.
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Stupid suggestion (sorry Churchill) - forewarning of ripoff does not justify the subsequent ripoff.
Well...I've tried my best to answer the questions that I could -- but as a reminder, I only answer questions that I know, and refuse to speculate on things I don't know.
It's clear that no matter what I post, it's not enough, so I'll kindly and respectfully direct you to call MartinLogan directly with any questions that you feel were not properly answered in Scotty or Rob's responses.
(785) 749-0133
And as always, you're always welcome to call me anytime, also.
~Justin
Horchem1972
Well-known member
Sounds as if your taking your ball and going home as soon as the heat gets turned up. How about having them personally answer questions on the forum instead of using you as a go between. Everytime you ignore a question it seems as if they are being dodged by you or your boss. If you cannot or do not the have the info, how about getting someone that does? Do you really expect us to belive that materials have tripled within the last year? I understand that ML is using you hoping to fan the flames. We would appreciate someone that can answer all questions, not what you wish to answer. You are quickly losing a very loyal fan base and no one seems to care.
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kwr
Well-known member
Best sort of business is return business.
Second best is referred business.
Applies to small companies, big companies, sole operators, Mum and Dad shops ..... and ML.
Silly to **** on customers.
When the Monolith screens fail (as they certainly will) that will be it.
Kevin
Second best is referred business.
Applies to small companies, big companies, sole operators, Mum and Dad shops ..... and ML.
Silly to **** on customers.
When the Monolith screens fail (as they certainly will) that will be it.
Kevin
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amey01
Well-known member
Too right.
Justin - instead of getting your techos to answer questions, how about taking this to the bean counters?
Sure - us here are the p1ssed off ones, becasue we're the ones with our money invested in your company's products.
But. Do you really think any potential owners' feasibility studies are going to stack up with this knowledge now?
Sure, there'll be a few idiots that don't care or don't research - but most will realise that TCO of ML products just doubled........
What is that going to do to their purchase decision?
Most people aren't fooled no matter if they see 3+1 or 2+2. Just think about that.........
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Translation: I have fed you a three page dissertation on why it costs so much to produce ELS Panels, but can't really get into the reasons why we had to raise prices by two or three fold, why prices for panels on newer models jumped up as much as legacy models, or what our cost structure and profit margin actually is on replacement panels, or why we had to raise prices all at once with no warning just barely over a year after we had decided to discontinue legacy model support but got thwarted in that decision by an outcry from a very concerned fan base.
Translation: I have said all that management will allow me to say and this discussion is rapidly getting into areas that make management uncomfortable, so please call us with any concerns so that we can give you the run-around over the phone.
Bernard
Well-known member
I'm confused. I thought that in talking to you here we were dealing directly with MartinLogan.
Justin, I do feel sorry for you; I have been in the same position myself, in a different environment. The bean counters higher up spout a lot of unrealistic crap, and you in the trenches have to deal with the irate customer.
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euphonia
Member
I was going to upgrade my 20 year old cls lla to ClX. Not now! One would have to be either very wealthy or insane. Martin Logan used to be a very classy company but not any more. They have joined the ranks of the commoditizers.
Especially when you consider that, for the same price as a CLX, you can get a Soundlab M-1PX that will be an heirloom for your kids in twenty years, rather than an expensive paperweight in need of costly new panels. Not to mention that the Soundlab is a true full-range stat that goes down to 24 hz. with no crossover, as opposed to the paltry 56 hz. of the CLX with its crossover at 360 hz., and it has over twice the amount of transducer radiating area (probably one of the most important stats for a stat) as the CLX. Perhaps this is why they have a much wider horizontal dispersion and taller vertical dispersion of sound than the CLX. And quite honestly, the Soundlab just looks a lot better than the CLX, in my opinion. I really don't know how Martin Logan intends to compete in the high end arena when their reputation for customer service is dropping as fast as their prices are rising, and their products are just not in the same league as their competition at similar price points.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
So here's a scary question.
What will be the impact on this wonderful website (not to mention product resale value) as a result of ML's actions?
GG
What will be the impact on this wonderful website (not to mention product resale value) as a result of ML's actions?
GG
I have already steered away a friend of mine who wanted "cheap but good speakers like yours". Mr. Zimmerman's analysis makes a case for unspecified increased costs; fine, I still believe the rest of the picture - the actual 3X increase - is really a decree from the top.
At least Justin cares to respond to this forum. However, I don't think the beancounters will do anything about this outcry until they see an actual drop in their sales.
I've posed this question before: ML charges $725 for the SL3 woofers, EACH. But their service dept gave me a link to Madisound for a woofer that is essentially the same at $110. I cannot tell the difference between the two as I'm listening to them right now. i mean, I understand it's a business, but the markup is incredible. Then you're going to tell us you were losing money on the replacement parts business? It just does not add up...
I've posed this question before: ML charges $725 for the SL3 woofers, EACH. But their service dept gave me a link to Madisound for a woofer that is essentially the same at $110. I cannot tell the difference between the two as I'm listening to them right now. i mean, I understand it's a business, but the markup is incredible. Then you're going to tell us you were losing money on the replacement parts business? It just does not add up...
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
I purchased a replacement SL3 ML woofer from Jim Power, for about $100 several years ago.
This seems to be very compelling evidence that ML is artificially raising prices on replacement parts and encouraging obsolescence.
And yes, the "*******" will see a drop off in sales. The only question is when.
And by then, it may be too late to rebuild customer confidence in the brand.
And once this happens, the "*******" will claim ignorance (as to cause) and not take responsibility for their action.
GG
PS: One also has to wonder how ML dealers (or folks buying a used product) will answer questions from astute potential buyers when confronted with the panel replacement cost issue.
Also, if ML is charging $700+ per woofer and the resale value of an SL3, in good condition, is around $1,100 to $1,200, how would anyone in their right mind consider paying that cost.
This seems to be very compelling evidence that ML is artificially raising prices on replacement parts and encouraging obsolescence.
And yes, the "*******" will see a drop off in sales. The only question is when.
And by then, it may be too late to rebuild customer confidence in the brand.
And once this happens, the "*******" will claim ignorance (as to cause) and not take responsibility for their action.
GG
PS: One also has to wonder how ML dealers (or folks buying a used product) will answer questions from astute potential buyers when confronted with the panel replacement cost issue.
Also, if ML is charging $700+ per woofer and the resale value of an SL3, in good condition, is around $1,100 to $1,200, how would anyone in their right mind consider paying that cost.
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Make no mistake. Justin cares about his job. He is marketing director. His job is to make MartinLogan look good no matter what. I'm sure he is a great guy, but he isn't on this forum out of the goodness of his heart, and he doesn't always have or give all the pertinent facts.
His original excuse for having to discontinue legacy support on many models was that available parts for all those models were in short supply and would soon be unavailable. Once management changed their mind about this issue, suddenly those parts were available again. Just like magic! That was just one example of them being less than honest about the reasons they were making decisions that negatively impacted their former customers.
The rise in price of the woofers on the SL3 is another example of rampant price-gouging on parts by the new ML, with no valid reason. From $100 each just a few years ago (according to Gordon) to $725 each today, for what is still essentially a $100 woofer! Somehow, Rob Zimmerman's treatise on ESL construction doesn't explain that 700% jump in price.
Management has decided that every department in the company must cut costs and increase revenues, and customer service is no exception. That is why they fired long-time customer service employees. And that is why they are jacking up prices on all parts. Simple profit motive. Brand reputation be damned.
Agree. It's also a question of leadership -- or lack thereof. Sickening.
Wonder what Gayle is up to these days?
Hmmm. Think I'll check this out when an opportunity presents itself. I can see where dealers will soon quit bothering with carrying the ML line of speakers, based on lack of customer demand.
jmschnur
Well-known member
I am not sure high prices lead to a bad reputation.
Poor quality does. Poor service does.
The emergence of a 2nd tier of lower quality products may well also hurt Ml 's reputation in the high end.
Since panels can last up to 15 years or more , i think the issue of high replacement costs may not affect MLs reputation as much as stated in this thread.
However a 15-20 year warranty on panels and 10 year warranty for the electronics might go a long way to reducing any harmful effects of high replacement costs.
Joel
Poor quality does. Poor service does.
The emergence of a 2nd tier of lower quality products may well also hurt Ml 's reputation in the high end.
Since panels can last up to 15 years or more , i think the issue of high replacement costs may not affect MLs reputation as much as stated in this thread.
However a 15-20 year warranty on panels and 10 year warranty for the electronics might go a long way to reducing any harmful effects of high replacement costs.
Joel
amey01
Well-known member
It will slowly grind to a halt as we (one by one) sell our speakers for other brands.
amey01
Well-known member
No it won't because at one point or another, the speaker WILL need the replacement panels.
It becomes simple economic feasibility (asset value less expense to keep asset in service) whether the speaker will continue in service or be thrown in the rubbish.
To throw a speaker system of that value in the rubbish after 5 (or with super-warranty, 15) years is equally absurd.
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amey01
Well-known member
Let's stay on topic Rich - this thread is not about the specs of the CLX, and raising the topic of specs takes from the very serious topic at hand.
I think we all agree - the CLX is a damn fine speaker, regardless of its specs. The only spec purchasers need to wonder about is whether the system will still be usable in 10 years time.
I appreciate your sentiment, Adam. But if we were staying on topic, we would all still be congratulating MartinLogan for re-instituting legacy model support, instead of complaining about their recent price-jack of replacement panels.
