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As far as I know this is the ONLY model we can not service or replace the panel. I've been more than transparent about that, and our sales and service team as even offered an EXTENSIVE discount, much cheaper than the cost would be to service, to get a replacement model.

~Justin

actually i had to ask a number of times on the forum to get an answer from you regarding Logos panel support. When I got it I thanked you for that. It that post you said that you WILL (future tense) be offering a discount for owners, but that discount program was never announced - or if it was I missed the announcement.


You publicly stated that EVERY model would be supported. And then without any warning we started to see posts that people could not get Logos panels. That is not transparent.

Please show us the announcement you made about Logos support not being available - not the reply to my repeated question, but the announcement.

Please show us the announcement of the discount program which was offered - not the "it will be coming", but the announcement of the actual program. You often post that something is brewing be patient and I'll let you know when I can.

It seems that in this case, patience did not serve Logos owners well.
 
I just *love* being called a liar on the internet, so just for fun, I looked up the previous thread where I say (or rather quote Rob Zimmerman, our Operations Manager) on March 4th, 2010:

"Service panels will continue to be hand-built here in Lawrence, KS. That might change at some point in the next few years, but for now we will continue to build those in the US."

Rich, please check your facts before you post something "I" said.

Speaking of which, this thread is so filled with so many uneducated "facts" that people keep posting it's hard to read. Therefore I've asked many members of the ML team to read and address them, and will provide you with accurate, factual information. Should have something for you next week to give everyone a chance to weigh in over here.

Stay tuned,
~Justin

I look forward to the update on these topics from ML.

Joel


J
 
Right, as a result of the manufacturing move, prices did not change. Take a look at the last sentence: "Prices DO change over time as material costs increase, but no specific increase as a result of this move."

Material costs -- I can not speak to those intelligently because I don't know that information, I can only say, again, that I've asked the people that work with "sheet metal and mylar" to look at what's been posted and put together their thoughts in a clear and factual way. But from what I do know, material costs from suppliers has risen consistently for the past 15 years with no pricing increase from MartinLogan. 15 YEARS!

~Justin

Justin, I call that a red herring. If it were fifteen years of materials price increases that caused you to double prices, why did you do so on panels for current models? The CLX has only been around a few years. Yet, prices on replacement panels for that speaker doubled as well from a couple of years ago. Surely when you set prices for replacement panels on the new model, you did so originally with the cost structure in mind. So why did it double in the past few months?

Also, you forgot to explain away this issue:

And yet you blindsided us with a doubling (or more) in price of replacement panels. No forewarning whatsoever that you would be raising prices due to materials cost increases. Surely you recognized the anger this price hike would generate after the prior fallout from discontinuation of legacy support, yet you intentionally gave no forewarning. So surely you can understand why it is a little hard to believe you at this point.
 
Please show us the announcement of the discount program which was offered.

"...for this particular model [Logos], ML will offer a discount program to upgrade to a current model center channel. You can contact our sales team at 785-749-0133 for more details if you have a Logos."

I don't understand what else there needs to be. Do you want me to write up a press release for you? Every case is different, you need to call the service department if you have a Logos and they will work with you.

Have you called them to discuss Zaphod?

~Justin
 
Justin, I call that a red herring.

Well color me shocked, Rich.

If it were fifteen years of materials price increases that caused you to double prices, why did you do so on panels for current models? The CLX has only been around a few years. Yet, prices on replacement panels for that speaker doubled as well from a couple of years ago. Surely when you set prices for replacement panels on the new model, you did so originally with the cost structure in mind. So why did it double in the past few months?

Like I've repeatedly said, I'm not going to address materials pricing (because I'm not the authority) and will let those in "the know" answer that instead because ultimately whatever I say is just my speculation, and you all know what I feel about people that speculate without facts!

And yet you blindsided us with a doubling (or more) in price of replacement panels. No forewarning whatsoever that you would be raising prices due to materials cost increases. Surely you recognized the anger this price hike would generate after the prior fallout from discontinuation of legacy support, yet you intentionally gave no forewarning. So surely you can understand why it is a little hard to believe you at this point.

Actually Rich, I've already addresses this in previous comments, I didn't have the information and was a little upset that no one here at ML looped me in as well so I could get it out to you. As soon as I caught wind of the discussion, I jumped on to provide whatever answers I could.

~Justin
 
I didn't have the information and was a little upset that no one here at ML looped me in as well so I could get it out to you.

I imagine you were a little upset, since you are the one who ends up on the hot seat. Given the uproar over legacy support and concern over panel replacement at that time, and ML Management actually coming out with an apology and a quick turnaround on that policy (due at least in part to the uproar on this board), I can't imagine that they didn't realize there would be an serious negative reaction with a doubling in the price of replacement panels. Therefore, they had to really consider whether to do such a thing and whether to provide advance notice of it. I guess what I am saying is, I can't imagine that you were kept in the dark by accident. Management made that decision intentionally, I expect. Sorry you are taking the brunt of this, but surely you can understand where a lot of this anger is coming from. You did, after all, promise us you would keep us informed and then, wham! they double prices on replacement panels without a peep in advance.
 
"...for this particular model [Logos], ML will offer a discount program to upgrade to a current model center channel. You can contact our sales team at 785-749-0133 for more details if you have a Logos."

I don't understand what else there needs to be. Do you want me to write up a press release for you? Every case is different, you need to call the service department if you have a Logos and they will work with you.

~Justin

You showed me the reply to my question - not an announcement as I asked for. or was that the annoucement?

I don't expect a press release but when you mention a program that will (future tense) be coming, do you want us to repeatedly call until it comes to fruition?

of course not. that's why it's annoying that patience (for the announcement of an upcoming program) gets rewarded with silence.

I did call. I asked if discontinuation of the Logos panels was true, they said yes, we commiserated and the call ended. At no time was a discount program mentioned.

I did my part, I didn't harangue you for details on the upcoming program, I did call the service department to discuss panel availability. I don't understand what else there needs to be.
 
I am sure that the higher ups have read this thread and the consensus was that it will blow by and eventually die. Their real target sale is the new NAIVE audiophile whom has no inclination of whats transpired.

We as a Whole are what made Marten Logan!!!!!!!!

"LOYAL" followers of Gayle and Ron.. Repeat show attendees as well as private unpaid salesmen that spread the gospel to many others! Something that the "OLD" ML was aware of and willing to sacrifice some service $$$ for repeat business and NEW business from the real sales force,,, US ! Its us who sell these high end speakers not the pimple faced kid at Magnolia or the sales clerk on the end of the line reading a brochure ! High end audio shops are a dying breed as well as true audiophile salesman.

Its s up to us to keep the word fresh and loud and clear ! Many storms do pass but the wreckage and remains are never forgotten. Its sad how as soon as the new blood started running through the veins that pricing was secretly hiked and older legacy lines were gonna be forgotten. Again its"US" that started the landslide, and like all landslides they to end sometime !
 
I did call. I asked if discontinuation of the Logos panels was true, they said yes, we commiserated and the call ended. At no time was a discount program mentioned.

I did my part, I didn't harangue you for details on the upcoming program, I did call the service department to discuss panel availability. I don't understand what else there needs to be.

Hey Zaphod, I'm not sure when you called, but I just talked to the service team and we indeed do have a discount program in place, and they asked you give them a call to discuss -- from what I understand there are several different scenarios and options and each case is different.

If you like I can even pass your contact information to them if you prefer, just shoot me an email - jbright [at] martinlogan [dot] com.

Thanks,
~Justin
 
JUSTIN,

you can put it any way you want, however an overnight price jump from $900.00 to $2750 for a panel smells like big time bullsh1t to everyone - FACT. Material prices do gradually increase overtime, especially after 15 years, but not 200% overnight!!!!!!????????????? That's taking the p1ss!! It's wrong and you know it.
 
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Sounds to me like Justin is also in the dark and out of the LOOP.

And he's the "dog" that's getting kicked.

Also, seems to me he's doing the best he can with what he has to work with.

Kinda sounds like my job sometimes.

Not a fun place to be.

GG
 
That's what I was thinking too Gordon

My company is all compartmentalized crap and if some one apply's for a job it takes about a month just to deny some one and another month to let them know why lol

Justin on a personal level I think your great but you are a representative of the company and we need answers to rationalize company decisions. You guys must know its not good for the company and that you have an obligation to support us who support you. I'm sure you will fill everyone in with something more than a blanket statement in the days to come. I just bought some Vista's and thought I got a great deal but after all this has passed I have a bad taste in my mouth and second guess my purchase. I even feel like I'm on a sinking ship and ponder bailing while I am still afloat
 
Contradicts...I think you mean, corrected. So you should post the corrected information from now on Rich. Even I make mistakes *gasp*


~Justin

1. We appreciate your input here
2. I think we all understand you're in a tough situation
3. If you make a mistake, perhaps it's not best to chastise someone who might quote that mistake.

I'm sure you can understand why we're a pretty p1ssed off lot at the moment. We have all invested a lot of money in eminently expensive speakers that depend on the supply of a consumable, proprietary part.

To invest that sort of money in speakers, we're probably a fair way ahead in the IQ curve too. Many of us work in manufacturing too, so some [I'm intentionally not going to say truthful, but] believable answers as to what is going on would be great.

And nothing about "MOQ" please - because (with current production models affected AND the same parts used in all panels whether from 2012 or 1992) I think we all agree that could be nothing other than a lie?

15 YEARS!

Oh, and CPI over that same period was 48.3%, not 200%. There has even been some negative CPI in the past few tumultuous years.
 
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Oh, and CPI over that same period was 48.3%, not 200%. There has even been some negative CPI in the past few tumultuous years.

Good point, Adam. Oh, and let's not forget that supply options have mushroomed during that time frame. There are exponentially more sources of coated mylar and punched metal grid panels now than there were fifteen years ago, most of them located in China with very cheap manufacturing costs. It would not be unreasonable to assume that costs for these parts are less now than they were fifteen years ago, or at least that they have not managed to keep up with inflation. Any way you look at it, the MOQ argument doesn't make sense and sounds like a cop-out.
 
Thanks for being patient as I gathered up some information regarding panel pricing & answers to questions about materials. All roads on my quest for knowledge led me to Rob Zimmerman. For those that haven't had the pleasure of meeting Rob, he's been working at MartinLogan for 21 years, led the production team building stat panels, and has been one of the main procurers of raw materials used in each stat panel model over the years. To say it quite simply, his word is the authority when it comes to all things regarding the materials and procedures MartinLogan uses for electrostatic panel production.

Currently Rob is our Operations Manager, and among his many duties he oversees service panel production here in Lawrence, and is a stickler for maintaining the precise, original standards for building all legacy panels. He often randomly pops his head in the service room to double/triple test panels before they go out.

I asked Rob last week to look over the questions and concerns raised in this thread, and below are his very detailed responses (thanks Rob!).

~Justin


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the price increase on service parts across the board

All MartinLogan products are designed and tested from the ground up with the highest quality materials and parts available. Each and every component that goes into the making of a MartinLogan speaker is critical to the performance of our products. Alternative suppliers, less expensive raw materials and less reliable component parts are almost always available. However, compromising quality to save money has never been an option that we have considered as viable.

For over fifteen years, MartinLogan has experienced annual price increases from all of our suppliers without passing along those increases to our customers for service parts. We can no longer absorb these additional costs and continue to provide the level of service that we have come to be known for in the industry. Our strong commitment to our customers requires that we must, to the best of our ability, continue to maintain the quality level of all of our current manufacturing and replacement parts.

Important Facts Regarding MartinLogan Custom Perforated Metal

The raw material required is of an uncommon and expensive formulation

  • This is due to our need to achieve the correct malleability characteristics in order to be able to hand form the stats into the perfect curve.
  • We must achieve the proper dielectric relationship between all of the components (tape, diaphragm and metal) in each stat panel, which is different between models, this is especially true with legacy panels as we learned and improved over the years.

Machine setup time and inspection process
  • In order for our supplier to produce perforated metal to the exacting quality standards we require, the machine setup time is lengthy and expensive. The additional processes involved require a highly skilled machine operator to insure minimal rework and defects.
  • MartinLogan closely inspects uncoated metal to insure consistency of hole pattern alignment, overall shear size and border width. All of these factors must remain consistent from batch to batch or the metal is rendered useless.

ML perforated metal manufacturing processes

The manufacturer of perforated metal designed specifically for MartinLogan stat panels requires several non-traditional (and therefore expensive) processes to meet our unusually high quality standards. Here are a few:

  • Tightly controlled feed rates (feed rates insure consistent hole alignment).
  • Specific shearing guidelines (shearing is critical to insure size and hole alignment consistency from piece to piece).
  • Additional leveling and rolling steps (MartinLogan stat metal is required to be flatter than the typically accepted industry standards for perforated metal).

Shelf life of raw perforated metal

  • All metal oxidizes over time. We require our supplier to coat our perforated metal with liberal amounts of the most rust-inhibiting substance known which prolongs the shelf life of the “raw” metal until we need to proceed with the powder coating/insulating processes. The rust inhibitor is an expensive coating but is required in order to insure oxidation-free raw material at the time of powder coating. However, even with a rust-inhibitor, after a certain amount of time passes the raw metal will oxidize beyond acceptable limits and be unusable.

Important Facts Regarding MartinLogan Custom Tape/Adhesive Materials

Adhesives and adhesive carriers are designed into the performance of each stat panel and cannot be substituted between models without affecting the performance

  • Each particular type of adhesive (and its related carrier material) has its own dielectric properties, which affect stat panel performance dramatically and varies between models, especially in legacy products.
  • The sheer strength if each type of adhesive is taken into account in the design phase of each stat panel and can not be "substituted" with different adhesives.
  • The thickness, width and coverage of adhesives all play a critical role in the output of the stat panel.

Electronic components are crafted based on the performance characteristics of our adhesives

  • Each MartinLogan speaker model’s particular electronic crossover and individual power supply is designed (from inception) based upon how a particular adhesive affects and interacts with the perforated metal and diaphragm components contained within the stat panel.
  • The adhesives we use have changed over the years, but because of the above factor, MartinLogan must use the precise original adhesive and adhesive carrier to insure consistent performance throughout the life of the speaker.

Manufacturing and Slitting of Custom MartinLogan Adhesives

  • The adhesives and related adhesive carrier materials that MartinLogan chooses are of the highest quality and are therefore quite expensive to manufacture. To describe it only as "tape" is highly inaccurate.
  • Adhesive manufacturers require minimum purchases in order to most effectively utilize their base materials (typically either master rolls or master sheets).
  • MartinLogan’s tight width and thickness tolerances require high-grade base material that cannot always be slit/cut without several additional (and therefore expensive) steps in the process to insure consistency.

Shelf Life of Adhesives and Adhesive Carriers

  • When purchasing adhesives at quantities sufficient to the manufacturing needs of current products, shelf life is not an issue since inventory is replenished regularly. When a product becomes officially discontinued, usage drops significantly. Shelf life is then an issue as certain adhesives (which are not all the same) may reach a point where their properties and characteristics are unacceptable for new manufacturing.
  • MartinLogan’s adhesive suppliers (as mentioned above) continue to require minimum purchase quantities. This means that MartinLogan must discard some of our older adhesives from time to time and reorder newly manufactured material, which has the proper performance characteristics.

Regarding refurbishing panels

The concept of refurbishing panels isn't a new one, and something we've tested in the past, but it's simply something that does not provide consistent results. The tolerances and specifications we use are exact, and pulling, prying or bending the stat panel metal even slightly calls into question future reliability and consistency with the performance that a refurbished panel might have. Because the adhesives we use essentially create a permanent bond, using releasing agents, sharp knives, scrappers, or any other method to release that bond simply yields results not acceptable to our very high quality standards, especially when it comes to the most important part of the speaker, the electrostatic panel.

Other Important notes about stat adhesives and metal

Overall, products designed using specific adhesives and adhesive carriers must maintain that component make up during the life of the product. Any change in adhesives and/or adhesive carriers will require a complete redesign of the product from the ground up.

Where the stat metal is concerned, all of the aforementioned material specifications and process requirements exceed most acceptable industry standards. This drives up the cost of MartinLogan’s perforated metal considerably. Our suppliers demand a premium for implementation of each of these higher specifications and processes in manufacturing, and while these costs have risen consistently over the past 15 years, we've done our best to absorb those costs.

Also, MartinLogan’s costs go up exponentially when we are forced to order in smaller quantities (after a product is discontinued), and the raw metal materials we use for current panels has changed considerably from past generations of panels. When volume declines on our purchase orders to our metal and adhesive suppliers for these legacy products, we can always expect to see a price increase. It is not uncommon to experience a price increase of twenty to fifty times what we would normally pay for the same components purchased at higher quantities. In fact, in some cases, our suppliers will simply not provide price quotes for the smaller quantities that we require.

Final thoughts

Our commitment to providing outstanding customer service isn't something we take lightly, and while not everyone will agree with decisions we make, I hope this sheds some light on some of the complexity involved when making these difficult decisions.

All the best,
Rob Zimmerman
 
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Thanks for the write-up, Rob. It explains a lot. But it still doesn't explain:

1. Why prices of panels have doubled (or more), while the rate of inflation over the last fifteen years has been less than 50%.

2. Why prices of panels of even the newer speakers, like the Summit or CLX, have also doubled.

3. Why there was no warning given that this price increase was being implemented so those who have had their speakers for over a decade could consider going ahead and upgrading their panels before the price increase?

4. If you have been eating these costs for some time now and taking a loss on replacement panel sales for years (I do find that one hard to believe), why double the prices all at once? Why not a planned raising of prices over time to get you where you need to be (25% a year over the next four years, for instance) instead of out of the blue doubling or more the cost of replacement panels with no prior warning?

5. And now, the big one: If your panels are so freakin' expensive to build (as you spent most of your post explaining), how on earth can you afford to sell a complete pair of electromotions for less than the price of a pair of replacement panels for my Summits? Are the woofer, box, and electronics really that cheap?
 
Thanks for the write-up, Rob. It explains a lot. But it still doesn't explain:

1. Why prices of panels have doubled (or more), while the rate of inflation over the last fifteen years has been less than 50%.

2. Why prices of panels of even the newer speakers, like the Summit or CLX, have also doubled.

3. Why there was no warning given that this price increase was being implemented so those who have had their speakers for over a decade could consider going ahead and upgrading their panels before the price increase?

4. If you have been eating these costs for some time now and taking a loss on replacement panel sales for years (I do find that one hard to believe), why double the prices all at once? Why not a planned raising of prices over time to get you where you need to be (25% a year over the next four years, for instance) instead of out of the blue doubling or more the cost of replacement panels with no prior warning?

5. And now, the big one: If your panels are so freakin' expensive to build (as you spent most of your post explaining), how on earth can you afford to sell a complete pair of electromotions for less than the price of a pair of replacement panels for my Summits? Are the woofer, box, and electronics really that cheap?

Rich...I agree with all you said. In point 4, I believe the reason is the new ownership that wants to see profits up NOW. Not a gradual increase over a few years. The bean counters rule the world!
 
What I read in this well-worded response from Mr. Zimmerman is a directive from the top to increase revenues 3X across all channels. This explains Rich's point #5.
 
Thanks for the write-up, Rob. It explains a lot. But it still doesn't explain:

1. Why prices of panels have doubled (or more), while the rate of inflation over the last fifteen years has been less than 50%.

2. Why prices of panels of even the newer speakers, like the Summit or CLX, have also doubled.

3. Why there was no warning given that this price increase was being implemented so those who have had their speakers for over a decade could consider going ahead and upgrading their panels before the price increase?

4. If you have been eating these costs for some time now and taking a loss on replacement panel sales for years (I do find that one hard to believe), why double the prices all at once? Why not a planned raising of prices over time to get you where you need to be (25% a year over the next four years, for instance) instead of out of the blue doubling or more the cost of replacement panels with no prior warning?

5. And now, the big one: If your panels are so freakin' expensive to build (as you spent most of your post explaining), how on earth can you afford to sell a complete pair of electromotions for less than the price of a pair of replacement panels for my Summits? Are the woofer, box, and electronics really that cheap?

Agree with all these questions.

And with reference to point 5 - I would have thought development / R-D costs would be the main expense in a speaker. With all the expenses in a speaker, I would have thought the panel itself would be quite small. Yet an entire Electromotion can be sold for less than the cost of replacement panels? No way - how does that add up?

In the end, we know the panels aren't cheap to produce, and we also know Martin Logan does a damn fine job of manufacturing them. That's why (in the past) we have happily paid $900 (for CLS) panels, and why we would no doubt happily pay $1,300 - $1,400 today (CPI Increase over 15 years).

Also (importantly)
-justin- said:
Shelf life is then an issue as certain adhesives (which are not all the same)

6. Does that mean Jim Power was lying when he said that all service/replacement 'stat panels benefit from modern materials and production techniques?

7. If shelf life in the factory is so low, how do they damn well last beyond a year in our houses? Some of which are in tropical environments.
 
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