Have we become comfortably numb

[timm]

We can say lots of things, but no matter what we say on this forum, we aren't actually going to do anything that solves this problem.

In my post what I was trying to do was stress the fact that everything we say about this is an exercise in futility.

well yes... and you have said a lot of things... ... I wasn't necessarily disagreeing... but pointing out a different piece of this - which is what the discussion should be...... 'Why do people pick up weapons and kill other people'......People can kill for 'reasons'.... and it makes the public feel safe if say - there was an argument or a drug deal gone bad.. so someone died.... a reason to hang your hat on..... but people feel vulnerable when it appears random.... So the solution? - Get rid of the weapon that wreaked the havoc. That is not root cause thinking.... that is reactionary.... and I feel that it throws a smoke screen of the issue as a whole....

We should be discussing...'what do all of these nut jobs that kill innocents randomly have in common over their lives that would make them pick up a weapon and kill'....I mean we have enough of them now right?

 

[Kevin]

We should be discussing...'what do all of these nut jobs that kill innocents randomly have in common over their lives that would make them pick up a weapon and kill'....I mean we have enough of them now right?

Bingo!! Mass shootings in schools were not the problem decades ago that they are today, but guns were as easy, if not easier, for a person to purchase decades ago. I think a good bit of this are losers, with nothing else going for them in life, just looking for their 15 minutes of fame. If you look at each shooting, it's as if each one is trying to out do the other, and they may end up dead, but they certainly do get the attention they probably seek. My gosh, look at how youtube is filled with young idiots, doing stupid stuff, that kids would have been embarrassed to say they did when I was young. It's moral rot.

 

[timm]

So ... Here is what I will say to Gordo.. The OP. yes we have become comfortably numb. But this occurred years ago prior to these shootings when people weren't paying attention and kids problems were manifesting themselves silently. We just didn't see it.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

An interesting take on this subject by Malcolm Gladwell.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

 

[Kevin]

An interesting take on this subject by Malcolm Gladwell.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence

Unless I didn't understand it, it seems like the author is comparing these acts to sort of like a riot, where people who may have never have been the first one to act out, do so once they see so many others involved, sort of getting pulled into the violence or destruction? But don't rioters you have a cause, rightly or wrongly, they proclaim to be supporting by their rioting? If so, what "cause" are these guys trying to support with their violence?

What I found interesting in the article, is the father saying that his son spent a lot of time watching youtube and wore a lot of black. But questioningly said, "isn't this normal"? Well, obviously it wasn't normal decades ago before youtube or the other social sites were available. But I would also say it isn't normal today, for normal kids. I would hate to be asked what my child is into, and I say well she watches a lot of youtube. I have about a dozen or more things that my child is involved with before anything computer or TV related would make the cut. What passes as "normal" today is pretty sad if this is true for most families.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I think he was referring to riots like those after a large sporting event in some areas where there is no real reason for any violence to happen.

People are either excited about winning or upset about losing and heading out into the streets and someone throws a stone through a window, and someone else feels enabled to do the same thing and suddenly a pile of people are behaving very badly.

This is also like the suicide issue I mentioned earlier that affected one country in Asia. One suicide received a lot of press and suddenly they had an epidemic of teens committing suicide. That one event "enabled" others to think that was a acceptable thing to do.

 

[timm]

I think he was referring to riots like those after a large sporting event in some areas where there is no real reason for any violence to happen.

People are either excited about winning or upset about losing and heading out into the streets and someone throws a stone through a window, and someone else feels enabled to do the same thing and suddenly a pile of people are behaving very badly.

This is also like the suicide issue I mentioned earlier that affected one country in Asia. One suicide received a lot of press and suddenly they had an epidemic of teens committing suicide. That one event "enabled" others to think that was a acceptable thing to do.

Your suicide example is interesting. The commonality between this (got a lot of press) and possibly today vs yesteryear is improved communication channels via this new fangled thing called the Internet. Back in 1980 if someone did something heinous - you heard about it on your local news or paper. Today you have 24/7 coverage on CNN and every other station plus Internet coverage. So maybe that helps feed it and create this copycat type of thing. I noted in the article that a large percentage reference the columbine killings.

 

[Kevin]

Just read an article the other day showing that knife crime was up in England by over 15% this year and that there are now some in England who are wanting to pursue greater laws on knives. After looking around some more, it seems that some doctors want to ban "pointy" kitchen knives, because they are seeing more people coming into the emergency room with injuries from these type of knives, being that they are usually large, sharp, and "pointy". Not being one to read something and just accept it as fact, I found this on snopes- http://www.snopes.com/2015/06/22/save-a-life-surrender-your-knife/ So I guess there is actually a call in England now to do something about all the knife crime that keeps increasing. Obviously it's much harder to injure a large number of people with just a knife. But the point I would make is that it seems you just can't please some people. You surrender your guns, and then they want your nice turkey carving set. Why not just get tougher on crime in general, and keep all of us safer from whatever a perp might use to attack us?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Those pointy kitchen knives are dangerous. About a decade ago I accidentally dropped a heavy Henkel knife straight down when I was putting away dishes. It went clear through my toe nail and toe. Luckily the knife was was just washed and sanitized and my toe never got infected.

Now that I think about it, I don't think that I actually need a sharp point on them. I just need a sharp cutting edge. They could have the tips cut off and the front surface rounded and still have the same utility to me. Maybe knives will end up that way eventually.

 

[Kevin]

Saw this in a US Today article about the suspect in the most recent shooting death of a New York police officer.

***Earlier Wednesday, police named Tyrone Howard, 30, as the suspect. Howard previously was wanted in the Sept. 1 shooting of a gang member and has a lengthy criminal history, city officials said at a news conference. "He has shown no propensity, with the number of arrests over (a) period of time, for changing his ways," William Bratton, New York police commissioner, said. "His whole life has been about an escalation of crime."***

So why the outrage over guns, but not the criminal justice system that allows people like this to keep roaming the streets until they kill someone?

 

[amey01]

Saw this in a US Today article about the suspect in the most recent shooting death of a New York police officer.

***Earlier Wednesday, police named Tyrone Howard, 30, as the suspect. Howard previously was wanted in the Sept. 1 shooting of a gang member and has a lengthy criminal history, city officials said at a news conference. "He has shown no propensity, with the number of arrests over (a) period of time, for changing his ways," William Bratton, New York police commissioner, said. "His whole life has been about an escalation of crime."***

So why the outrage over guns, but not the criminal justice system that allows people like this to keep roaming the streets until they kill someone?

Hearing this sort of thing makes me furious beyond belief.

If it costs too much to keep all these criminals in gaol (the commonly pulled out argument) then chain their sorry legs together and get them building railways and roads. Heck, even if they were just made to clean we could all have nice, shiny cities.....

 

[CLIFF]

Hi all, been really crook for a while,but now on the mend, if anyone wondering!!
Being a country boy and growing up on a farm,i feel i can comment a little on the subject.
Any person that has held, and fired a gun, should well know the power you feel when its in your hands. It is quite strong.
I also know the feeling when what you shoot ,dies in front of you.thankfully i have moved on ,grown up,and have no need to shoot anything that is alive,anymore.sometimes you have to unfortunatly.especially if living in the country.
The world is full of idiots,these are the people that should not be able to buy a gun over the counter. Here in western australia,you have to own a farm ,belong to a gun club, or after getting permission from three farmers and after a lot of police checks,then you may get a gun licence. Getting a pistol is ni on impossible. Also no autos here as well.
Finishing up, one thing that stood out to me when in the states a few years ago, is the amount of mentaly ill people wandering the streets?? This cannot help your gun problem either,
is this because of your lack of free health care?? And a lack of free mentalhomes maybe??
Our biggest gun problem now ,is cheap hand guns from america being smuggled into our country.
So from where i sit ,keeping guns away from those who have no reason to have them, is your problem, self protection is not a reason here in australia. It wont be one in the usa either ,once they are restricted.
Your constitution isnt a big help either ,the wild west is long gone guys. Cheers cliff .ps hi roberto

 

[Kevin]

Hi all, been really crook for a while,but now on the mend, if anyone wondering!!
Being a country boy and growing up on a farm,i feel i can comment a little on the subject.
Any person that has held, and fired a gun, should well know the power you feel when its in your hands. It is quite strong.
I also know the feeling when what you shoot ,dies in front of you.thankfully i have moved on ,grown up,and have no need to shoot anything that is alive,anymore.sometimes you have to unfortunatly.especially if living in the country.
The world is full of idiots,these are the people that should not be able to buy a gun over the counter. Here in western australia,you have to own a farm ,belong to a gun club, or after getting permission from three farmers and after a lot of police checks,then you may get a gun licence. Getting a pistol is ni on impossible. Also no autos here as well.
Finishing up, one thing that stood out to me when in the states a few years ago, is the amount of mentaly ill people wandering the streets?? This cannot help your gun problem either,
is this because of your lack of free health care?? And a lack of free mentalhomes maybe??
Our biggest gun problem now ,is cheap hand guns from america being smuggled into our country.
So from where i sit ,keeping guns away from those who have no reason to have them, is your problem, self protection is not a reason here in australia. It wont be one in the usa either ,once they are restricted.
Your constitution isnt a big help either ,the wild west is long gone guys. Cheers cliff .ps hi roberto

Does any country really offer "free health care"? Someone may go into a hospital and get treatment, and that person may not pay a penny out of their own pocket at the time, but does that mean their health care was free? It might have been free for that individual, but somebody had to pay for the doctor, the equipment, the hospital, the medication, the staff, the electricity..... you get my point.

Decades ago, the ACLU was successful in a string of lawsuits, on behalf of the mentally ill, making it harder to force treatment against their will. Ironically, one of the first of those lawsuits was for a woman who claimed she did not need treatment. She won her lawsuit. But with time her illness progressed to the point to where she was on the street and couldn't fend for herself. She walked into a clinic or hospital (it's been awhile since I have read this story) and sought treatment for her mental illness, but by then she had let herself reach bottom. In Australia, from my own research, it seems like it is easier for the family, a doctor or the state to force someone into treatment. In my opinion, this is much more humane approach than allowing someone their "liberty" against treatment, when the person is too sick to realize that they need the help. Another reason for our having many people on the street with mental illness is that we have more people with mental illness than any other country. I'm not sure why, perhaps we really don't, but we just label people as having mental illness when in another country, perhaps they wouldn't label it as that. Between my job, family, chores and hobbies, honestly, I don't have any time left for mental illness.

 

[twich54]

Saw this in a US Today article about the suspect in the most recent shooting death of a New York police officer.

***Earlier Wednesday, police named Tyrone Howard, 30, as the suspect.

How much you wanna' bet Tyrone doesn't even know his father ……………...

 

[Kevin]

How much you wanna' bet Tyrone doesn't even know his father ……………...

My heart goes out to the family of Randolph Holder, the police officer that was killed. The judges who let Tyrone roam the streets are just as guilty for his death as Tyrone. Had they done their jobs, Mr. Holder would be alive today. The same goes for Kate Steinle, the girl who was killed by the illegal immigrant who had seven felony convictions against him, but was released by San Francisco, against US law, due to its status as a sanctuary city.

Even in the latest school shooting, the gun mans father ranted about how guns were the problem. But he admitted that he didn't know his son, being that the son lived with his mother and they had separated after only 11 months of marriage. So you don't know your son. You haven't been involved in his life. You had no idea he was mental and had acquired a collection of firearms. But you have the nerve to say your sons problem was somehow America's problem because of the weapon he choose to use, instead of perhaps your own failure as a father.

 

[twich54]

Kevin, exactly………as I said in post #72 of this thread ……………..

 

[amey01]

How much you wanna' bet Tyrone doesn't even know his father ……………...

Well, another thing I've always said is that baby making should be licensed.

You need a licence to drive a car
You need a licence to fly a plane
You need a licence to shoot a gun (here anyway )
You need a licence to keep a snake
You need a licence to go fishing
You need a licence to deal antiques
You need a licence to be an electrician
You need a licence of one form or another to do most jobs - heck, you even need a licence to look after other people's children (again, here anyway - all childcare workers require a "blue card" )

But for something as important as the life and welfare of another human being.......any feral yobbo can pop one out. As many as they wish.

This is half the problem with the world today - there is no hope for some of these people. They should not be born in the first place.

I say this sort of in jest - but when you think logically about it, what is the problem with some basic tests before you have a child.

So that if you want to have a child you at least have to show that you are capable of looking after it, providing a stable and loving family environment, educating it, feeding it, clothing for it and providing shelter. Surely?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Unfortunately with the birth rates where they are today, our population would be shrinking pretty quickly.

In Japan the birth rate is about 1.3 and they have almost no immigration into the country. They are getting ready to implode.

 

[amey01]

Unfortunately with the birth rates where they are today, our population would be shrinking pretty quickly.

In Japan the birth rate is about 1.3 and they have almost no immigration into the country. They are getting ready to implode.

Well, there's another problem. Economies depending on infinite growth (in a finite world). Doesn't compute. Can't go on forever. At some point we will all implode.

And lower birth rate is got to be better than having kids dragged up by ice-addicted parents, neglected in the back of a 20-year old Hyundai in the car park of the local club while they gamble the family savings away on the pokies.

 

[twich54]

Gordon, after the 'latest' tragedy in Ca, I'm afraid we have ............truly become numb.