RonR
Well-known member
Gordon, I agree with you on that!
Have we become comfortably numb
- Thread starter Gordon Gray
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slowGEEZR
Well-known member
It's time for republicans to take back their party and work with democrats through the normal process of compromise to prevent further division among ourselves. IMO
Kevin
Well-known member
I wasn't anywhere near a computer to respond yesterday, but there is one very large difference between the US and Australia, and perhaps other countries as well. Since I have never been one for political correctness when just stating facts, I'll give you one very large difference between the US and Australia. It appears as though Australia is about 92% white and 7% Asian. You must have a very low population of blacks or Hispanics. Here in the US, blacks and Hispanics account for a much larger share of our murder rate than whites, even though whites make up 77% of our population. If you take the murder rate of just whites and Asians in the US, our murder rate falls considerably lower. So that is one huge difference. What would the murder rate in Australia look like if you took the demographics that you have in the Northern Territory and applied it to the rest of the country? Also, Australia is surrounded by water, so you don't have people sneaking across your border that you have no idea who they are and what there intentions might be. I have already shown in a different thread just how many of the FBI's most wanted list is composed of Hispanics for any state or city along our southern border. Before anyone calls me racist, these are just the facts. Also, I don't think the color of skin has a thing to do with the person committing murder. It's poverty, having social involvement in things other than street corners, drugs, gangs and parental involvement- and perhaps a host of other reasons. But that again supports my belief that there are many things involved here in the US, than just the number of guns, when you are going to compare the US with other countries.
The US gun murder rate has gone down substantially, I think more than half, since a peak in 1993. But I'm guessing the amount of firearms has probably substantially increased since that time. So if it is as simple as the US having more guns, that is driving our higher number of gun deaths, how does that compute? Of course, that leaves open the question of why more "mass shootings" occur now, especially among white males in school, despite the number of gun deaths in general substantially falling over the past two decades? Is it because there are more guns, or is there another issue at play? Again, why do we have more than our share of serial killers, who do not use guns the majority of time? Why do we still have more murders than other nations even when removing those killed by firearms?
I would feel comfortable locked in a stadium, by myself, with 30,000 guns. I would feel comfortable locked in a stadium with 30,000 guns in the hands of 30,000 sane and law abiding citizens. I would not feel comfortable in a stadium with 5 criminals and 1 violent nut job, even if there are 0 guns. Does America have a problem with "mass shootings" and gun deaths in general? My answer is yes. Is it due to the number of guns? My answer to that is no, it's who out there has those guns in their possession. If people believe it's just the number of guns that needs to be addressed, how would you decrease that number, without making it "tougher" as I have said, on those of us who are responsible with guns?
One thing for sure, there are no easy answers. There is no way, at least in my lifetime, that I can see the US doing anything remotely like what Australia did to remove guns. It just won't happen, so another realistic and workable solution would need to be found. I don't think I am going to change anyone's mind, you certainly won't change mine. But I do enjoy hearing others opinions, even when the differ or challenge my own.
Kevin
Well-known member
The democrats had a filibuster proof majority at one time, they could have used to pass any laws they wanted to without the republicans being able to stop them. They found a way to pass Obamacare despite no republican votes. Why did they not pass any gun law that they felt was necessary at that time?
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
Different topic Kevin.
Like every other time that we have had to change the way we do things, it always ends up driven by having too many bad apples that finally ruin it for everyone else.
Kevin
Well-known member
I disagree. It goes right along with what is being discussed. The thread is about gun control, and then turned into a discussion of republican politics. Isn't that when things really got off topic? But you suggested that the republicans don't compromise with the democrats. So I would like to know why the democrats didn't pass a brilliant gun law when they clearly had the open opportunity to do so. But I understand why you wouldn't want to answer that question. And it seems that deflection is what liberals do best when they don't have an answer.
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The Democrats for the most part are in bed with the NRA almost as much as the Republicans are, so they aren't doing anything. They don't want to touch this issue with a 10 foot pole.
Gun manufacturers are having a field day. Obama has been GREAT for the gun business! People are so scared that Obama is going to take their guns away that people are buying guns like crazy.
amey01
Well-known member
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
Absolutely - that's why we participate
I agree, it's a very difficult discussion, with no easy answers. The important thing is to have discussion so that different ideas can be mulled over and possible helpful actions can be determined. That's the hope, anyway.
amey01
Well-known member
As I've always said - controversial topics are usually always controversial for a reason. That reason is that there is a damned good argument on both sides!
Discussion is healthy!
Mark, how true, my cousin manages one of the largest gun shops in Western NY, the Obama admin has been a godsend ……….
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Talk about the hight of stupidity and gun violence ……………
http://www.corvetteforum.com/articles/corvette-owner-shot-highway-waving-mustang-driver-pass/
http://www.corvetteforum.com/articles/corvette-owner-shot-highway-waving-mustang-driver-pass/
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
There are a lot of crazy people out there.
Recently I read that for every gun used properly in self defense two guns go off accidentally killing an innocent,and another 24 people are shot dead by criminals and while another 78 people shoot themselves. That can be read many ways. Some would say that the 24 people killed by criminals would be lower if more people had guns and that people who are suicidal would find another way. I also suspect that most people only believe the accidental death would happen to someone else, or that was Darwin at work.
Meanwhile cars are the leading cause of death for people aged 18-35 and almost everyone uses a car,
and ~ 75-80% of all heart disease and cancer can be prevented by proper diet and exercise.
So in one sense we watch many people around us slowly kill themselves every day.
On top of that the earth is in the middle of a mass extinction with a such huge population of people such that the loss of a few people by gunfire hardly seems important.
My take from this is that we should vote responsibly to try to change what we can, and that we should try not to waste too much of our lives in shouting matches about things we have no control over.
Or to put this another way, if you were to take all the priorities you have in life that really matter dearly to you, how high on that list is debating with people who have almost no control over the things you are debating. Seems pretty pointless doesn't it?
Meanwhile cars are the leading cause of death for people aged 18-35 and almost everyone uses a car,
and ~ 75-80% of all heart disease and cancer can be prevented by proper diet and exercise.
So in one sense we watch many people around us slowly kill themselves every day.
On top of that the earth is in the middle of a mass extinction with a such huge population of people such that the loss of a few people by gunfire hardly seems important.
My take from this is that we should vote responsibly to try to change what we can, and that we should try not to waste too much of our lives in shouting matches about things we have no control over.
Or to put this another way, if you were to take all the priorities you have in life that really matter dearly to you, how high on that list is debating with people who have almost no control over the things you are debating. Seems pretty pointless doesn't it?
Kevin
Well-known member
Actually, that brings up an interesting point, as I have read over the years just how much road rage is on the rise. http://www.today.com/news/road-rage-fatalities-rise-police-crack-down-aggressive-driving-t6046 So is road rage just another statistic pointing again to America's further moral decline and rot, or should I just believe it's the inevitable result of more cars on the road? For once in my life, earlier in the year, I finally had one of those moments in a vehicle when you wish a policeman were around..... and he was. I was at traffic light to make a left hand turn, and the green arrow turned to just a green light as I pulled up to it, so I yielded to a car coming straight through from the other side of the intersection. The driver of the car behind me apparently thought I should have pulled out in front of the other driver and proceeded to pump his fists and flip me the bird while moving his mouth in an obvious shouting manner. What he didn't realize, being so focused on me I guess, what that a police car was right beside him in the other lane, and he did end up turning his lights on and pulling him over. It made my day.
Kevin
Well-known member
I'll give you another way of looking at it. If that one person who's gun was "used properly in self defense", saved his own life and perhaps that of other family members, then I doubt he cares much about the other list of statistics concerning guns. I guess that is how I look at my own situation. Do I care about accidental shootings? Of course, that's why I teach my own child not to ever touch my guns without my own supervision, and why I keep them in a hidden closet that she doesn't know about. It's why she only goes to the homes of others that I know and trust. Do I care about criminals killing people? Of course, but that's why I don't visit the "high crime" pockets in our country, as we have already stated exists in every country. And it's those criminals that are loose in our society, that gives me further reason to have protection for my own family. Do I care about people committing suicide? I guess, but you can't prevent the stupidity or problems of other people, I have enough trouble dealing with my own. Just my two cents.
Good gosh... these statistics are meaningless and pointless..... I mean - you could say ... We have X number of guns sold and owned .... vs number of deaths by guns.... So essentially you have a very high number of guns vs a very low number of deaths.... in which case you could come to the conclusion that guns are completely safe because statistically the number of guns that are involved in a death vs the number available is astronomically low. How many ways do you want to twist this to no conclusion?
To me - maybe these discussions are harmful - in the sense that it creates this cloud and all this noise that it makes it difficult for anyone to get to the true matter at hand....
At work I have similar issues... people see results they don't like....and so the issue must be the 'final' action taken not something upstream which was the root cause of the issue in the first place.... So, people make wrong decisions based on results....and never do the ground work - which is root cause analysis.... This is really the same decision tree - whether it be for financials .... or for this discussion....
To me - maybe these discussions are harmful - in the sense that it creates this cloud and all this noise that it makes it difficult for anyone to get to the true matter at hand....
At work I have similar issues... people see results they don't like....and so the issue must be the 'final' action taken not something upstream which was the root cause of the issue in the first place.... So, people make wrong decisions based on results....and never do the ground work - which is root cause analysis.... This is really the same decision tree - whether it be for financials .... or for this discussion....
We can say lots of things, but no matter what we say on this forum, we aren't actually going to do anything that solves this problem.
In my post what I was trying to do was stress the fact that everything we say about this is an exercise in futility.
Kevin
Well-known member
The chances are good that no one on here is going to have their minds changed. But I wouldn't call it an "exercise in futility" necessarily. It's hard to stumble upon a solution or to learn the truth by remaining quiet and failing to listen to others. It's all good, I enjoy reading what others have to say. I agree with Timm, it is never as easy as just looking at data and saying this is why it must be. If that were true, then we should all quit drinking water, because I can draft a chart that shows that everyone that has ever died, drank water.
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