slowGEEZR
Well-known member
I know that. It doesn't take away the fact that she was Muslim.
Have we become comfortably numb
- Thread starter Gordon Gray
- Start date
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I know that. It doesn't take away the fact that she was Muslim.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Bottom line.
USA citizens are more likely to be killed by gun incidents / use in the USA (given the existence of some 300,000,00 guns in this country) than by any terrorist acts (including Muslims) in the past 14 years or so by a factor of fifty to one if I recall correctly.
And most reasonable people recognize that Muslims in the USA are typically the initial point of contact with other Muslims who may desire to perform terrorist acts.
Seems like we should welcome their presence and appreciate their support and help versus branding them the evil / incarnate religious group bent on destroying this country.
USA citizens are more likely to be killed by gun incidents / use in the USA (given the existence of some 300,000,00 guns in this country) than by any terrorist acts (including Muslims) in the past 14 years or so by a factor of fifty to one if I recall correctly.
And most reasonable people recognize that Muslims in the USA are typically the initial point of contact with other Muslims who may desire to perform terrorist acts.
Seems like we should welcome their presence and appreciate their support and help versus branding them the evil / incarnate religious group bent on destroying this country.
Kevin
Well-known member
Gordon- Why do you think the state in which you live in, Wyoming, has the highest percentage of firearm ownership in the US of any state, and yet at the same time, has one of the lowest firearm homicide rates of any state?
It is very simple. They have a very low population density.
When people are spread out they tend not to be as jumpy as when they are crammed together tightly. All kinds of crime go up in dense populations.
That's why Chicago, NYC and other large cities will always have a higher homicide rate no matter how many regulations they have on the books.
Mark, we all knew that, I suspect Kevin was just waiting for the 'acknowledgement' from Gordon.
I can pretty much sum up Kevin's question with a one word answer ………….. demographics.
Kevin
Well-known member
That sounded like a reasonable explanation, I thought you were probably onto something. So I looked up the population density of Wyoming's largest city, Cheyenne, and found out it's about 2,430 people per square mile (PPSM) . I couldn't find the homicide rate in Cheyenne just by firearm, but the murder rate appears to average about 2.4 murders per 100,000 over the last 15 years. Of course, New York and Chicago have far greater PPSM values than that. But New Orleans has 2,029 PPSM, less than that of Cheyenne, but the lowest murder rate in the past 20 years I could find for that city was 32.5 per 100,000 in 1999. In most years the rate is above 50 murders per 100,000, or over 20 times that of Cheyenne. Cheyenne appears to be much lower than other cities with low density rates as well. So I don't think the answer is as simple as higher densities make people jumpier, thus they shoot people more often.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Dave,
Demographics is an interesting phenomena when it comes to gun deaths.
So you all know, Wyoming has a state population of about 600,000 per the 2010 census. Lowest in the lower 48 to the best of my knowledge.
Approx. 63% of all households have guns. This is way up there as you would imagine given our state's love of individual freedom (including gun ownership) and hate for government telling our citizens what they can and can't do.
An example. There is actually support for folks who want to be able to bring guns into public meetings. Not sure why they apparently feel threatened but I guess they do.
Wyoming has also rated in the top five states for overall gun deaths per 100,000 people for numerous years. I also found a stat (need to verify) that approx. 80% of all gun deaths in Wyoming are attributable to suicide. Not good. I knew two friends here in the Jackson area that chose that route.
Guess our male population needs more sheep.
On a more serious note Kevin, I was painting with a broader brush regarding gun deaths in the USA versus deaths caused by Muslims, terrorists, etc. The differences in magnitude are quite astounding.
Gordon
Demographics is an interesting phenomena when it comes to gun deaths.
So you all know, Wyoming has a state population of about 600,000 per the 2010 census. Lowest in the lower 48 to the best of my knowledge.
Approx. 63% of all households have guns. This is way up there as you would imagine given our state's love of individual freedom (including gun ownership) and hate for government telling our citizens what they can and can't do.
An example. There is actually support for folks who want to be able to bring guns into public meetings. Not sure why they apparently feel threatened but I guess they do.
Wyoming has also rated in the top five states for overall gun deaths per 100,000 people for numerous years. I also found a stat (need to verify) that approx. 80% of all gun deaths in Wyoming are attributable to suicide. Not good. I knew two friends here in the Jackson area that chose that route.
Guess our male population needs more sheep.
On a more serious note Kevin, I was painting with a broader brush regarding gun deaths in the USA versus deaths caused by Muslims, terrorists, etc. The differences in magnitude are quite astounding.
Gordon
Gordon, this seems to have turned into people that want to know who is coming into this country don't like, trust, or want anything to do with Muslims. I don't think anyone here (please correct me if I have misstated this) said Muslims are bad, evil or not worth having add to out society.
Based on you previous statements that, referring to me "You are probably a good person". To me it sounds like you had a bias against me because my beliefs and statements that were not the same as yours.
Based on you previous statements that, referring to me "You are probably a good person". To me it sounds like you had a bias against me because my beliefs and statements that were not the same as yours.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Brad,
Your only post on this thread, that I could find, is No. 203.
I never responded to or commented on that post to the best of my knowledge.
With all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about.
To make my position clear, I have repeatedly said overreacting to what has recently occurred is a major mistake and Donald Trump's position of stopping all Muslims from coming into this country (in the short term) is misguided and offensive to basic American values.
Please clarify the above post if you wish.
Gordon
Your only post on this thread, that I could find, is No. 203.
I never responded to or commented on that post to the best of my knowledge.
With all due respect, I have no idea what you are talking about.
To make my position clear, I have repeatedly said overreacting to what has recently occurred is a major mistake and Donald Trump's position of stopping all Muslims from coming into this country (in the short term) is misguided and offensive to basic American values.
Please clarify the above post if you wish.
Gordon
Kevin
Well-known member
Dave,
Demographics is an interesting phenomena when it comes to gun deaths.
So you all know, Wyoming has a state population of about 600,000 per the 2010 census. Lowest in the lower 48 to the best of my knowledge.
Approx. 63% of all households have guns. This is way up there as you would imagine given our state's love of individual freedom (including gun ownership) and hate for government telling our citizens what they can and can't do.
An example. There is actually support for folks who want to be able to bring guns into public meetings. Not sure why they apparently feel threatened but I guess they do.
Wyoming has also rated in the top five states for overall gun deaths per 100,000 people for numerous years. I also found a stat (need to verify) that approx. 80% of all gun deaths in Wyoming are attributable to suicide. Not good. I knew two friends here in the Jackson area that chose that route.
Guess our male population needs more sheep.
On a more serious note Kevin, I was painting with a broader brush regarding gun deaths in the USA versus deaths caused by Muslims, terrorists, etc. The differences in magnitude are quite astounding.
Gordon
Hi Gordon, I also read, from multiple sources, that the suicide rate in Wyoming is 80% of the total gun deaths for your state, so I believe that is true. When I wrote about the growing number of kids here in the US dying as a result of texting while driving, some 3,000 a year, way more than are being killed in mass shootings, you responded by saying, "That's their irresponsible choice and very different than innocent people being killed in a mass shooting." But for that same reason, I left out the number of those who commit suicide by gun. What is more irresponsible than purposely shooting yourself? In the US as a whole, 60% of gun deaths are those by people committing suicide. It's unfortunate, and people have many reasons for doing it, but they all did it to themselves.
Saying that the reason for the US having a high rate of gun homicides is a "direct" correlation to our high number of guns is simply wrong, in my opinion, as Wyoming perfectly demonstrates. If the US as a whole, had the same rate of gun ownership as Wyoming, the US would have even substantially more guns than we currently have. If at the same time, we also had the same percentage of homicides by gun in the US as in Wyoming, we wouldn't be having this conversation for the most part. So clearly there are other issues at play.
I don't think we can compare what other countries have done, and say we would get the same results if only we followed suit here in the US. We are comparing the US to countries that have less ethnic diversity and thus probably have stronger cultural ties, such as Australia. We are comparing ourselves to countries that can much easier control their population as well as their borders. Australia is surrounded by water, and many European countries are not as large as our largest states. We can't seem to stop people from sneaking across our border, so how can we stop guns that would get carried across the border? Every country has drugs and gangs, and the violence that both bring, but America again seems to have way more than our share compared to the other "developed" countries. To compare Australia, England and other developed countries to the USA is as meaningful as comparing Wyoming to Illinois.
We have greater freedoms and protections here in the US than other countries. France is currently taking steps to rid themselves of terrorists within their borders that we could not take. Along with that greater freedom, should come a greater sense of holding people responsible who would take advantage of it. We should not have "suspected terrorists" within our country. If they are suspected, they should be indicted. We should not have repeat criminals or untreated mentally ill people freely roaming our streets. The gun homicide rate in the US is too high. It's just one of many problems we have that, in my opinion, are all linked to our increasingly failing ability to hold people personally responsible. Dave, myself and others have said we would perhaps support additional gun laws that would actually make a significant difference, while placing a minimum amount of burden upon those of us who are responsible. What law(s) would you suggest we pass to achieve that goal?
Gordon, It was in your thread "ISIS. I think they are winning". Sorry for not stating that. These threads have turned into the same subject.
Start at Post #45. You then refer to us as being paranoid and having (Muslim) phobias. You also state our beliefs are just knee jerk reactions.
It would seem you have a bias against anyone that thinks our government is not protecting us.
Start at Post #45. You then refer to us as being paranoid and having (Muslim) phobias. You also state our beliefs are just knee jerk reactions.
It would seem you have a bias against anyone that thinks our government is not protecting us.
Kevin, In response to the part of you post referring to being held responsible. That is virtually nonexistent in the court system today.
Here is Florida (and I know many other states) you regularly hear of people being arrested multiple time and still on the street.
Last night on the Local News there was a 12 year old boy that had been arrested for the 20th time in 5 years. This was his 12th Felony arrest for auto theft against the elderly. At what point do we say enough is enough and these persons never are free again.
Here is Florida (and I know many other states) you regularly hear of people being arrested multiple time and still on the street.
Last night on the Local News there was a 12 year old boy that had been arrested for the 20th time in 5 years. This was his 12th Felony arrest for auto theft against the elderly. At what point do we say enough is enough and these persons never are free again.
OMG Brad, a 12 year old ?????? and where were his loser parents throughout all of this ???
Woo Hoo!
There is a Santa!
I just got all of my code for a large project into code freeze before the January 4th deployment.
This means that I get to have FUN for the next few weeks.
So I'm going to try to stay away from negative or political threads for the rest of the holiday season.
Only fun stuff for this good boy
There is a Santa!
I just got all of my code for a large project into code freeze before the January 4th deployment.
This means that I get to have FUN for the next few weeks.
So I'm going to try to stay away from negative or political threads for the rest of the holiday season.
Only fun stuff for this good boy
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
Accountability. The current system is too lenient in many ways and too harsh in others. It seems obvious this boy isn't going to change and will probably move on to violent crimes unless he is put away. Are his parents in and out of the legal system also? Does he have parents? Gang related? I don't know the answer, but I do know that we have a huge number of people in prison, many more than most other countries, I believe. Our prisons are filled to over capacity and we reduce sentences for non-violent offenders on a routine basis to have more room for the violent offenders. I guess we could just continue to build more and more prisons and pay higher and higher taxes to keep them up and running, or have more for profit prisons. Is that the answer, or should we do something about the causes of criminal activity? I'm for the latter, but don't know what the answers are. I suppose a good case could be made for social inequities such as poverty, growing up in bad environments, gangs, that sort of thing. Fear, desperation, not able to achieve the American Dream, those may apply in some cases. I would guess some people just too easily turn to crime, but I think their environment helps those people along that path, as I doubt many human babies are born with a predisposition to crime.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Steve,
One of my favorite phrases that I believe is eminently true.
We are all products of our environment.
One of my favorite phrases that I believe is eminently true.
We are all products of our environment.
I'm
Mark who is going to open MLO members New Year's Resolution thread? Do you know? Will be you?
Woo Hoo!
There is a Santa!
I just got all of my code for a large project into code freeze before the January 4th deployment.
This means that I get to have FUN for the next few weeks.
So I'm going to try to stay away from negative or political threads for the rest of the holiday season.
Only fun stuff for this good boy
Mark who is going to open MLO members New Year's Resolution thread? Do you know? Will be you?
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The news report showed video of the theft and I am sure he used it more than once.
He was at a gas station on his bike. He rode past the drivers window and told the driver they had a low tire on the passenger side. The driver then exited the car and walked around the opposite side to check the tire. At that time the boy was on the drivers side, dropped his bike, jumped into the car and drove away.
This kid could barely see over the steering wheel.
Gordon,
Seems to me you have given this thread a new vector by starting a very interesting nature versus nurture debate.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Rehan,
I assume you mean the above post.
Perhaps.
But the bottom line is if a child grows up without any sense of love, guidance and positive reinforcing boundaries from nurturing parents or other family members and his only "friends" are street gang members who influence and impact his or her moral compass in a very negative, anti-social, violent manner, what type of personality traits would you realistically expect from this individual?
Absent constructive intervention by some responsible adult(s), it's very likely going to be a train wreck.
Gordon
I assume you mean the above post.
Perhaps.
But the bottom line is if a child grows up without any sense of love, guidance and positive reinforcing boundaries from nurturing parents or other family members and his only "friends" are street gang members who influence and impact his or her moral compass in a very negative, anti-social, violent manner, what type of personality traits would you realistically expect from this individual?
Absent constructive intervention by some responsible adult(s), it's very likely going to be a train wreck.
Gordon
