Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Please do my friend.
Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.
- Thread starter RCHeliGuy
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
Please do my friend.
and Timm, you probably did !
you now qualify for the MasterCard commercial .............'Priceless' !
Ok, Gordon said I can play the game ........
I acknowledge there are differences in cabling but I believe that science along with the known metrics (resistance, inductance and capacitance) are what drive those differences. With that being said given the cable length Gordon so prescribed and knowing what materials on this planet are needed for construction I see no reason for spending this kind of absurd money ....... https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Oracle-V1-5-HR-Ultra-Wide-Biwire
The most expensive cabling I have is my DH Labs Revelation Balanced XLR interconnects between my pre and my amp(s), bought 'em used for less than a grand. Do I see any need to spend more, of course not.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Do you still have the DH Labs IC in your system?
I had the SE version for all of my IC's and ultimately sold. I loved the clarity and the quickness but needed a bit more body in the midrange in my system. Hence my move to Shunyata Research.
Don't you have Signal Cable as your prime wire now? I believe Rich has wired his system with that manufacturer and is quite happy with the results.
I had the SE version for all of my IC's and ultimately sold. I loved the clarity and the quickness but needed a bit more body in the midrange in my system. Hence my move to Shunyata Research.
Don't you have Signal Cable as your prime wire now? I believe Rich has wired his system with that manufacturer and is quite happy with the results.
Gordon, yes the DH wire (IC's) are still there. I'm using Frank's (Signal Cable) for my speaker wire and power cords.
Yes. I use Signal Cable for all power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables, and am quite happy with them. I used to use their Silver Resolution speaker cables in my main system, but found I prefer the copper ones with the current setup (CJ tube amp and pre). I moved the silver cables to my basement system with the Sanders Pre, Pass X-350.5, and Ascents. They seem to do fine in that system.
I honestly haven't done a lot of comparison with audiophile brands and don't really feel the need to. My system sounds so good to me now that I am convinced that a different type of cable would simply sound different and not better. Maybe I'm the one suffering from the placebo effect. Either way, I'm happy.
amey01
Well-known member
I've heard this at the Australian Audio Show a few years ago: See link:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...ian-Audio-Show&p=141542&viewfull=1#post141542
---> Did I hear $AUD59,000 worth of sound in that room? I could prudently spend $AUD59,000 budget/limit on the total system and achieve better sound than I was hearing in that room!!
"Absurd" is not the word for it!
Oh, and it's a cable - why the need for heatsinks?
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Adam,
You are referencing "extreme" examples. They fit your narrative and bias.
No one who has posted disagrees with your assertions. Please stop the hyperbole.
Best,
Gordon
You are referencing "extreme" examples. They fit your narrative and bias.
No one who has posted disagrees with your assertions. Please stop the hyperbole.
Best,
Gordon
Actually, this gets to the heart of the discussion, Gordon. I think we all agree that tens of thousands of dollars on a cable is absurd and will provide no benefits anywhere near commensurate with the price. It is Snake Oil in its most extreme sense. I think we can all agree (or most of us, anyway) that lamp cord or coat hangers are super cheap and will conduct a signal, but are poorly designed and not well suited to a high end audio application. I expect few of even the most ardent objectivists on the forum are using them in their main system. So the vast majority of us will fall somewhere in the middle, spending some money to get what we consider decent cables for our systems. How expensive we go will depend on lots of factors, both subjective and objective. And therein lies the rub. Everyone has different perspectives, different budgets, different brains and hearing ability, different systems, different rooms, different experiences, different expectations, and on and on. That, my friend, is why there are so many different cable companies designing, marketing, and selling cables for every price point and every possible want, need, desire, purpose, etc. There's plenty of great technological research and development, creative engineering, and amazing design ideas, and there is plenty of snake oil, hyperbole, and marketing. And there will always be endless, possibly pointless, discussions just like this one all over the audio forums.
To bring this full circle, I seriously doubt Ethan's little marketing stunt (and that's all I believe it is) will make a ripple in this big ocean that is the cable wars.
To bring this full circle, I seriously doubt Ethan's little marketing stunt (and that's all I believe it is) will make a ripple in this big ocean that is the cable wars.
Last edited:
Well, at least it won't be ironic when you do.
Edit: wait a minute. Didn't you say earlier that you have spent tens of thousands of dollars flying little toy helicopters? Sorry, still ironic.
To be fair everything I purchased had a very specific function and none of it was superfluous.
This includes:
Non-crashables:
2 kW generator
Two battery charging systems I built capable of charging six independent types of batteries simultaneously.
State of the art transmitter with real time telemetry and voice readouts
Then there are crash parts
I currently have 5 helicopters, but I've had many others that I learned on and sold or gave away when I found something better.
This is my latest. I have 5 pinions for it and 2 motors.
As it is configured it is capable of 165 mph and when I get further along I'll install the retractable landing gear and larger motor
This should give you an idea of the scale of these helis.
I have 2 helis larger than this one.
This is my latest. I have 5 pinions for it and 2 motors.
As it is configured it is capable of 165 mph and when I get further along I'll install the retractable landing gear and larger motor
This should give you an idea of the scale of these helis.
I have 2 helis larger than this one.
Last edited:
amey01
Well-known member
No, it's not hyperbole at all. Just an example for demonstrative purposes.
Gordon asked a good question regarding what constitutes a high price for a cable.
Of the 18-20 Shunyata cables in my system I believe only 3 were purchased new and those were a dealer clearing out stock. The most I have paid for a 3 meter XLR interconnect is $1,100. Most of my cables were previously owned but still current at the time of purchase. On average I would say probably $500-$800 is the average cost per cable.
That is still expensive but certainly not stratosphere numbers. Even purchasing at that level was not something I did without considerable thought to the chance for real improvement. Once I had 75% SR cables in my system I decided to stay with that manufacturer for the sake of synergy in my system more than being sure I would hear a difference.
Each of us has a line we draw that is where crazy money begins. For me I would need to hear, and maybe see the sound of the angels in my listening room to spend $2,000 more on any cable.
Of the 18-20 Shunyata cables in my system I believe only 3 were purchased new and those were a dealer clearing out stock. The most I have paid for a 3 meter XLR interconnect is $1,100. Most of my cables were previously owned but still current at the time of purchase. On average I would say probably $500-$800 is the average cost per cable.
That is still expensive but certainly not stratosphere numbers. Even purchasing at that level was not something I did without considerable thought to the chance for real improvement. Once I had 75% SR cables in my system I decided to stay with that manufacturer for the sake of synergy in my system more than being sure I would hear a difference.
Each of us has a line we draw that is where crazy money begins. For me I would need to hear, and maybe see the sound of the angels in my listening room to spend $2,000 more on any cable.
I get that, Mark. I just had to razz you a little bit. It's a bit of an esoteric hobby and most couldn't imagine spending the kind of money on it you have. My point was just that a true audiophile would say the same thing about their expensive cable purchases: each has a specific function and none of it is superfluous. I feel like there is just a bit of the pot calling the kettle black in this thread in regards to dissing those who choose to spend their money on expensive cables, vs. expensive helicopters or watches. You see the value in what you have purchased and it was worth it to you. Others might see it as a big waste of money. People spending big money on cables are convinced they make a positive difference in their system and see value in the purchase.
As I said earlier, we all have our vices. I have a classic Jag that I spent way more money on having it restored than I could ever sell it for. I still believe it was money well spent. If you love your hobby, and can afford it, then go big or go home! And don't let anyone else's negative opinions on your extravagance limit your enjoyment of it.
Since I was asked what I considered reasonable cost for cables I'll let you know what I spent.
All I'm looking for is solid connectors and good shielding.
My system has no interconnects except for the XLR balanced connectors from the OPPO 105D pre-amp to the amp. I spent $35 for each of them. I thought I was spending too much at the time, but they looked pretty.
My speaker cable is massive overkill, but I had it sitting in a box for 25 years so I used it. It's 6 gauge OFC copper. I think I spent $75 on the speaker cable at the time before I knew better. I don't use end connectors. I just put a dielectric grease on the copper to prevent corrosion and stuff it into the amp and speakers.
The only other cable I have is a USB cable that I spent $7.69 on to get the digital music stream to the DAC in my OPPO 105D. It's shielded and gets the bits from A to B.
I did replace a couple power cables and got shorter lengths, but that was just for aesthetics. I spent $14.95 for a 3 pack of power cables. I heard no difference in sound quality
From what I can tell all the angels can still sing through them
All I'm looking for is solid connectors and good shielding.
My system has no interconnects except for the XLR balanced connectors from the OPPO 105D pre-amp to the amp. I spent $35 for each of them. I thought I was spending too much at the time, but they looked pretty.
My speaker cable is massive overkill, but I had it sitting in a box for 25 years so I used it. It's 6 gauge OFC copper. I think I spent $75 on the speaker cable at the time before I knew better. I don't use end connectors. I just put a dielectric grease on the copper to prevent corrosion and stuff it into the amp and speakers.
The only other cable I have is a USB cable that I spent $7.69 on to get the digital music stream to the DAC in my OPPO 105D. It's shielded and gets the bits from A to B.
I did replace a couple power cables and got shorter lengths, but that was just for aesthetics. I spent $14.95 for a 3 pack of power cables. I heard no difference in sound quality
From what I can tell all the angels can still sing through them
Last edited:
There is a difference here.
When I buy a 5kW motor or a custom wound 6.5kW motor, I can measure an increase in head speed with the more powerful motor and I can measure how much faster the battery is discharged.
I have full telemetry that measures EVERYTHING. There is a tangible cause and effect that I can prove exists for every component.
If you say that you want $$$$ cables because they look aesthetically pleasing to you, more power too you.
However, if you say that you spent $$$$ on cables because they make your system sound better, that is when I laugh.
I don't care what anyone spends their money on, but I do consider is foolish when people are deceived into wasting their money.
This is like "The Emperor's New Clothes". If I see a guy walking around naked and saying that he just spend thousands of dollars on the finest thread available, I'm going to laugh.
The difference is that you have an engineering mindset and objective measurements are what is important to you; whereas the audiophile with a different type of mindset is concerned only with their subjective impressions of the quality of sound of their system. "Trust you ears" being the mantra here. I would posit that neither viewpoint is "right" or "wrong" and neither should be laughed at for making their choices based on the things that are important to them. We all have different brains, different priorities, and different ways of coming to conclusions of value.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Mark,
I think you unable to "negotiate" the line between measurements and facts including one's personal reaction to something that can't be measured. Think about judgments and perceived value regarding art, religion, architecture, interior design, watches, clothes, expensive restored cars, and on and on. Audio hardware is very similar in many ways.
I assume you are an EW fan. Hence the purpose for you starting this thread. Many, including myself, are not.
Awesome heli stuff. Very impressive. I'm glad you enjoy your toys as I do mine. However, you have no basis for calling something "silly" (as you have done in this thread) because you have no personal knowledge upon which to support that judgement other than your personal biases.
I don't understand why you can't understand that basic concept and why some folks may take offense of your characterizations (again without basis other than personal bias) however well intended.
Gordon
PS: I once dated a lady who had a sister with a shoe collection just south of 100 pairs. I didn't "get it" but for her, there was a great sense of pride and value. And of course, I didn't call her sister silly.
I think you unable to "negotiate" the line between measurements and facts including one's personal reaction to something that can't be measured. Think about judgments and perceived value regarding art, religion, architecture, interior design, watches, clothes, expensive restored cars, and on and on. Audio hardware is very similar in many ways.
I assume you are an EW fan. Hence the purpose for you starting this thread. Many, including myself, are not.
Awesome heli stuff. Very impressive. I'm glad you enjoy your toys as I do mine. However, you have no basis for calling something "silly" (as you have done in this thread) because you have no personal knowledge upon which to support that judgement other than your personal biases.
I don't understand why you can't understand that basic concept and why some folks may take offense of your characterizations (again without basis other than personal bias) however well intended.
Gordon
PS: I once dated a lady who had a sister with a shoe collection just south of 100 pairs. I didn't "get it" but for her, there was a great sense of pride and value. And of course, I didn't call her sister silly.
Last edited:
Only 100 pair?
When I had my master closet enlarged to include the adjoining bedroom we had someone inventory my wife's clothes, shoes, purses etc.. and design a system to house them.
Last I checked just because I was curious she had over 50 purses and somewhere north of 150 pairs of shoes.
That said, she purges her shoes and purses when they wear out or go out of style and they do get use. She has a system to organizing them by type and color so she can go straight to the navy blue section of pumps and pick something that matches an outfit.
Do I consider it silly? My wife is beautiful, cares about fashion and is almost always very well dressed. I don't complain about how she looks and I don't impede her efforts.
Once again I see a tangible good that provides a service.
BTW I am very cognizant of the fact that people may take offense at my comments.
Sadly the human brain is very irrational and prone to making poor decisions and finding patterns where none exists.
The bottom line is that I will always find expensive cables silly and I will always consider people who think they make a difference deceived by their own brain and/or marketing BS.
I can't stop you from believing I'm ignorant because of this belief, but it won't change my thoughts on this matter.
BTW this has no impact on what I think of a person's intelligence or how I view them. EVERYONE has biases and misconceptions and everyone comes to their beliefs based on their very subjective perception of the world around them and all their experiences inside this perception bubble. I don't consider myself an exception to this rule and I don't consider my beliefs fixed. They are only what they are at this moment in time, except about this issue
Last edited:
Similar threads
