The Story of an EAR-diophile ... and the humor and insanity ! (long fun read)

[RCHeliGuy]

Please provide info to back up your claim.

It wouldn't matter. You've completely ignored and declared any testing or results that refute your feelings as invalid. Ethan Winer has written on the subject, but you don't consider him credible.

It's obvious that the acquisition of new toys in audio is something you greatly enjoy, so there is no point in even starting a debate on this subject. It will be just like religion or politics. Each of us knows we are right.

 

[C.A.P]

What I do find coincidental is every thing that is subjective and may have a advantage is immediately discounted by you.. Do you have a statue of Ethan Winner on your mantel? Its apparent he is your idol..

You have in many threads made ABSOLUTE statements with NO valid facts other than a Ethan Winner's opinion.. If Ethan Winner jumped off the Golden Gate bridge would you fallow

This thred is not about your opinions and biases. We know your TYPE ! Its a humorous attempt at the insanity we all LIKE and actually do to get that little bit more.. As Gordan stated, if you personally have not tried it then its not viable to post as its your opinion..

Like most who discount they have never tried..

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

To recap, you claim tube gear is flawed (poor design) but you have apparently never listened to any tube gear to substantiate your claim.

You also believe vibrations do not impact "electronics" because EW says so. Again no personal experience to substantiate your claim.

I know I have a strong basis for my position because I've actually tried and listened to various products over the years.

You have not.

If you want to dispute a statement that I've made in the future, please provide reasons why you believe different based on your personal experiences.

To do otherwise is insulting and trolling.

Best,

Gordon

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Have I listened to tube gear? Yes. It sounded fine to me. I've heard a fairly wide variety of esoteric stuff over the years.

My comment was that making a piece of audio gear that picks up vibrations and impacts the sound quality seems like a bad design to me. I was not denouncing tubes.

Gordon, do you have scientific information that backs up the fact that the dampening you are adding helps the sound of an amp or that a power cord impacts the quality of sound, etc..

I absolutely do not trust your ears or the ears of any human being to be objective about these types of products.


P.S. There is no way to express my disbelief without it becoming adversarial, so I guess I'll try to keep my opinions to myself.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

The answer to your "science based" proof is obviously no.

If you believe you cannot trust your ears or others, there's nothing I can say to convince otherwise.

The issue with myself and others versus you and the EW disciples is that you cannot accept or understand why there are so many folks in hi end audio that believe that "science" is limited within the context of determining the limits of "human audibility" and its subsequent impact on the listening experience.

That's causes an immediate "line in the sand conflict" with the predictable results. That's why EW has been banned from WBF and likely other audio websites.

Moving forward, I'm glad that you will consider keeping your opinions to yourself when you have no personal knowledge to base an "informed comment / opinion" regarding anything audio.

Thank you.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

Moving forward, I'm glad that you will consider keeping your opinions to yourself when you have no personal knowledge to base an "informed comment / opinion" regarding anything audio.

Honestly, Gordon, I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I'm dissappointed to even see you express it. Seems quite presumptuous for you to lay down your own personal bright-line test of whether or not some other member should speak their opinion on this forum.

I have never subscribed to the belief that "if you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion." Years of experience and acquired knowledge give an intelligent person the ability to have an informed opinion on many things they haven't directly experienced. I have never been to China, but I have some opinions on it. Audio is no different. If I have a strong opinion on something, I will offer it up for discussion, regardless of whether I have auditioned the particular component in question. You have every right to question the validity or basis of that opinion, but you have no right to insinuate that I shouldn't post it. This is a discussion forum. We should not be trying to censor anyone's right to participate in the discussion.

I think you take it way too personally when someone challenges your opinion, to be honest. You get your hackles up in a hurry. The simple fact is that you and Mark see things from entirely different perspectives. You have years of evaluating equipment subjectively, measuring with your ears. Mark has years of evaluating equipment objectively, measuring with instruments and applying scientific principles. Neither of you are inherently right or wrong. There is no right or wrong on these issues. There is only opinion, and every single one of us has a right to express ours and engage in the discussion! You and Mark will never agree on most of these issues, but you can both damn well learn to disagree without being so disagreeable. Respect the other person's opinion, even though you don't agree with it. Argue about the factual bases of these opinions all you want, but don't impugn the other person for their opinion and don't imply they have no right to express it.

/rant

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Rich, I appreciate your sentiment.

Still, I don't think that I've noticed one constructive thing come from these types of discussions.

Even if there were a winner, it wouldn't matter. These are luxury items and the people buying them aren't going hungry to pay for them.

If there is no change in outcome, and the stakes are meaningless with no one being hurt, why waste the time?

For that reason, I won't challenge what anyone believes to be true on this forum. Spend your money, have fun!

 

[Rich]

Still, I don't think that I've noticed one constructive thing come from these types of discussions.

Even if there were a winner, it wouldn't matter.

I'll tell you what I think, Mark. There are no winners or losers, because it's not a competition. It's a hobby that we all share, and we all come from different backgrounds and bring different perspectives to it. All of those perspectives are relevant in a discussion. If we can lay out the facts and reasoning to support our opinions and critically question the bases for other's opinions, while being thick-skinned enough to have our own perspectives and biases questioned, then we can have some lively discussions and debates that thoroughly cover a particular issue. Someone reading that discussion is likely to learn something and gain both knowledge and a greater appreciation for our hobby. This makes us all winners.

But if we constantly get offended by opposing opinions, and try to dismiss them out of hand or censor them from being offered . . . if we get into shouting matches and insult each other, etc. . . . then we all lose. Now I have certainly been guilty of this sort of behavior in the past, so I am not trying to pass judgment on anyone. I am simply saying that these discussions can be productive, even if no one convinces anyone to change their mind. Simply because the arguments are laid out, supported, and critically examined, such that anyone reading the thread can learn something, look at all the discussion, and make up their own mind where they stand on a particular issue. I think the discussion itself is what's valuable, not who's right or wrong or whether someone's mind was changed.

I have learned an awful lot about this hobby from many discussions on this forum, and I hope I've passed along some knowledge to others along the way. I just wish we could have some lively debates without it turning into bickering and, all too often, personal insults. And I just don't want to see anyone being led to believe they shouldn't post their opinions on any subject. I mean, that's kind of the whole point of a forum like this -- to be able to post your opinion and discuss a particular topic.

 

[C.A.P]

Mark its not a matter of WINNING as we all are crazy for what we do.. Its a matter of how you address the issue that is being discussed.. How you make passive aggressive remarks about others beliefs or testing. Trusting ONLY what you believe.. It is your choice to do what you want and what ever pleases your ears, But, do not abruptly discount those WHO HAVE TESTED and found verifiable results by our ears.. Then come back and insult us as misguided fools that haven't drank EW Kool Aid..
Yes scientific facts do exist.. Yes some measurable.. However; in this hobby you better have some faith in yours and others ears as its what makes the exact same system sound different in two different houses with identical set ups..

What I take from your point of view is its not worth the extra 1% to try and see.. Its easier to discount those who have and heard and flame them as loons!

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark its not a matter of WINNING as we all are crazy for what we do..

Maybe the issue is that I'm not crazy about this stuff and I'm not an audiophile and merely an audio enthusiast. Audio is way way way down my priority list in terms of what I'm passionate about. In fact I frequently go a week or two at a time without even turning on my stereo.

I was bitten by the bug way back in the late 80's when I was in college in Lawrence, KS. I went to the ML factory and heard the Statements they had setup in a music room and it left an impression. Then life happened, marriage, kids, and many other hobbies. FF 30 years and someone brought up stereo equipment and I realized I had completely forgotten about stereo and I was in a situation where I could buy anything I wanted. I spent a whopping 3 days shopping and came up with what I'm listening to now. Objective achieved, mark that one off the bucket list.

So yes, if I'm even close to 99% I feel like I've done great and I'm not remotely interested in expending effort to get that last 1%.

So the problem may be that I'm not crazy about audio. I'm just an opinionated SOB who has time to post of forums. I can be honest about this. It won't hurt my feelings.

There is no point in my expressing my opinion because while I feel strongly about the science, I appear to be more passionate about debating than I am about the music. I really don't care about making my system sound any better than it does now. It sounds terrific to me and is all that I want as it is.

On that note, I think I should try to spend my time a bit more wisely. Sorry for wasting your and my time.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Honestly, Gordon, I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment. I'm dissappointed to even see you express it. Seems quite presumptuous for you to lay down your own personal bright-line test of whether or not some other member should speak their opinion on this forum. /rant

Appreciate you opinion my friend but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

A "sensory" judgment (smell, hear, taste, see, feel) should be based on your senses correct? But maybe I'm fundamentally missing something. It's like a blind person trying to describe what color something is.

And yes, guilty as charged of being over sensitive at times. Sorry if I offended Mark.

Best.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Appreciate you opinion my friend but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

A "sensory" judgment (smell, hear, taste, see, feel) should be based on your senses correct? But maybe I'm fundamentally missing something. It's like a blind person trying to describe what color something is.

And yes, guilty as charged of being over sensitive at times. Sorry if I offended Mark.

Best.

Gordon,

You have not in any way shape or form even remotely offended me, which I also told you last time you apologized to me when you were fishing for a return apology.

What you did make me think about was how seriously you do take audio as a compare and contrast to my feelings on the subject.

I realized that I simply have no skin in the game.

What I realized is that I was completely apathetic about bothering to debate and not only that I felt like I would only be taking away from the enjoyment of people who feel much more passionately than I do.


Does that make sense?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thank you Mark for your kind words.

Makes perfect sense. I think we both understand each person's perspective a bit better. Always a positive step.

Best,

Gordon

 

[Rich]

A "sensory" judgment (smell, hear, taste, see, feel) should be based on your senses correct? But maybe I'm fundamentally missing something. It's like a blind person trying to describe what color something is.

Perhaps, but Mark wasn't making a sensory judgment, he was making a mechanical design judgment. He never said "tube amplifiers sound awful." He said:

I realized that my idea of poor design may differ from others, but any electronic device that is susceptible to introducing artifacts into the signal stream because of vibrations seems like a poor design to me. When I say signal stream I mean both analog or digital.

And you know what? He's absolutely correct. Tubes are poorly designed in that they are susceptible to microphonics. If it wasn't a design flaw, there wouldn't need to be aftermarket solutions like damper rings. Obviously, we love tube amps for the positive aspects of the design, and we put up with their design flaws because of their ability to produce incredible sound. But that doesn't mean those flaws don't exist.

Mark's statement that solid state electronics should not be affected by vibrations in a way that alters the sonic signature and therefore shouldn't need vibration dampeners is also a reasonable opinion to take because it is based on current scientific understanding. You don't have to audition vibration dampeners to come to that conclusion.

He may very well be wrong about it, because he is not aware of all the research or because science doesn't fully understand all the variables in play, but it doesn't make his opinion, based on his personal knowledge and understanding, any less valid. It easily has as much validity as any random internet person swearing vibration dampeners make a difference because they tried them and they swear they heard a difference. Please understand that you may also be wrong in your belief that they do make a difference. Your ears/brain could very well be fooling you. The placebo effect is real, and easily proven. This possibility doesn't make your opinion any less valid.

You give weight to your personal experience. Mark gives weight to his understanding of electronic and mechanical science. Both are valid bases on which to form an opinion.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thanks for the additional input Rich.

I've tried numerous vibration attenuation devices over the past 30 years and they were all audible in one way or another. IMHO, sorbothane is the worst unless you have an ultra bright system you want to correct. If you want to claim my ears / brains are being fooled despite the number of times I've tried these devices over time and heard their impact, I will again agree to respectfully disagree. I simply cannot and will not accept the notion that you can make a judgement on anything audio until you've heard it.

Have a great day my friend.

Best,

Gordon

PS: And to take this thread off topic, I visited the place I want to move / retire to (based on some in depth research) and it is perfect for me. I've also found the house I want to buy and am working on making that happen. Many wonderful changes coming for me in the next six months. Needless to say, I am very excited to start the next phase of my life.

 

[Rich]

If you want to claim my ears / brains are being fooled despite the number of times I've tried these devices over time and heard their impact, I will again agree to respectfully disagree.

I certainly wouldn't claim such a thing. I only make the claim that the possibility exists, regardless of your inclination to believe it. Just like the possibility exists that the science is wrong or at least incomplete, regardless of Mark's inclination to believe it.

PS: And to take this thread off topic, I visited the place I want to move / retire to (based on some in depth research) and it is perfect for me. I've also found the house I want to buy and am working on making that happen. Many wonderful changes coming for me in the next six months. Needless to say, I am very excited to start the next phase of my life.

That's awesome, Gordon. Hope it all works out great for you.

 

[Bernard]

PS: And to take this thread off topic, I visited the place I want to move / retire to (based on some in depth research) and it is perfect for me. I've also found the house I want to buy and am working on making that happen. Many wonderful changes coming for me in the next six months. Needless to say, I am very excited to start the next phase of my life.

Gordon, where in Canada are you moving to? :devil:

 

[C.A.P]

Gordon, where in Canada are you moving to? :devil:

Maybe that Northern air will be the ultimate tweak !

 

[Gordon Gray]

Bernard,

I wish it could be Canada. Victoria, BC to be exact. Too many citizenship issues to resolve.

My new location will be Alto, NM which is five miles or so north of Ruidoso.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

My new location will be Alto, NM which is five miles or so north of Ruidoso.

Interesting! You going to be o.k. with living in the desert after so many years in Jackson? That would seem to me to be the primary downside. Hard to get used to having no trees. I have a nephew near El Paso and that's his biggest gripe.