Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[RCHeliGuy]

Let me explain why that test fails.

This was a biased test guaranteed to show a difference. It was statistically very likely that a winner would emerge given the large number of cables vs. number of test runs.

1. They were testing too many cables.
2. They needed more tests of the same cables.
3. They were completely missing any baseline tests.

#2 To validate any measurement is MUST be reproduced. A vs B needed to occur more than once. B vs. A needed to occur more than once. Their test had ZERO averaging.

#3 They didn't included an A vs. A, B vs. B, C vs. C etc.. These tests should have shown 100% no preference.


To have any statistical merit they could have tested with only 2 cables and run the following 4 tests at least twice in different order.

A vs. B
A vs. A
B vs. A
B vs. B

What they did guaranteed to generate an outcome like they saw. There is no validation of any preference given with the testing they conducted.

 

[Rich]

Mark, I do agree that the test has zero scientific validity. At the same time, I do find it enlightening that, even with all the results being pretty close, the zip cord lost every single test. It didn't win once when compared to higher end cables.

I would also note that the whole concept of DBT has a host of its own issues in regard to its usefulness in determining differences in audio cables or components. Much has been written about this. So I don't think we are ever going to get to a point where the subjectivists and the objectivists agree.

The bottom line is that I don't think there is any more evidence to support your conclusion that no one can tell a difference between speaker cables than there is to support others' contention that they can.

 

[Hocky]

I have to admit, I love the irony of someone professing to wear a $10,000 watch laughing about the high price of HiFi cables. :ROFL:

But the difference is that I will readily admit that the watch works worse than a $100 department store brand. It is purely a luxury item that I enjoy for fit, finish, and exclusivity.

 

[Gordon Gray]

But the difference is that I will readily admit that the watch works worse than a $100 department store brand. It is purely a luxury item that I enjoy for fit, finish, and exclusivity.

and likely vanity and ego. It's look at me. I must be important if I can afford this $10K watch.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

The bottom line is that I don't think there is any more evidence to support your conclusion that no one can tell a difference between speaker cables than there is to support others' contention that they can.

Not from that unscientific test no. Nothing could be proved from it and pulling any information from it is completely nebulous.

The fact that many large dollar sign prizes have been offered over the years for anyone who could hear a difference and no one has ever claimed one of these prizes is more telling.

The fact that no manufacturer of any of the high end cables has been willing to take part in these tests further tends to discredit their impact on anything.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

I suspect that you will disagree (fine by me) but if these "tests" involve AB or DBT using short snippets of music as the foundation for quantifying differences, I would suggest that the basis for these tests are in error.

My best analogy is passing judgement on a movie based on the 3 minute trailer versus watching the entire film. The trailer, like the quick AB tests, are simply inadequate (given the short time span) to allow the person to make an informed judgement.

And yes, we can discuss aural memory but it's likely you and I will disagree on that topic also.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

But the difference is that I will readily admit that the watch works worse than a $100 department store brand. It is purely a luxury item that I enjoy for fit, finish, and exclusivity.

And we could argue all day long about whether the fit, finish and exclusivity of that watch comes anywhere close to justifying the $10,000 price tag. Which is what makes it ironic for you to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables they are convinced will make a positive difference in their system, regardless of whether you share that belief.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

And we could argue all day long about whether the fit, finish and exclusivity of that watch comes anywhere close to justifying the $10,000 price tag. Which is what makes it ironic for you to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables they are convinced will make a positive difference in their system, regardless of whether you share that belief.

Cool.

By that logic since I only own 2 Citizen Eco-drive watches that require no maintenance, batteries or winding and keep great time, I'm fully empowered to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables.

Good to know

 

[Rich]

Not from that unscientific test no.

Until there is a well-designed scientific study, published in a peer-reviewed journal, with repeatable results, I would say there is no valid scientific evidence for either presumption. Without such a study, I'll go with my gut and believe that a well-constructed cable will sound better in a good HiFi system than zip cord. At the same time, I don't believe that spending thousands of dollars per cable will necessarily get you better sound than a well-constructed, relatively inexpensive cable.

 

[Rich]

Cool.

By that logic since I only own 2 Citizen Eco-drive watches that require no maintenance, batteries or winding and keep great time, I'm fully empowered to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables.

Good to know

Well, at least it won't be ironic when you do.

Edit: wait a minute. Didn't you say earlier that you have spent tens of thousands of dollars flying little toy helicopters? Sorry, still ironic.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I'm fully empowered to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables.

Mark,

Out of curiosity, what is your price ceiling for a one meter interconnect or 1.5 meter power cable or an eight foot pair of speaker cables before one ascends into your "high price / premium" cable?

Gordon

PS: Let's stay with copper since silver is generally more expensive.

 

[Hocky]

And we could argue all day long about whether the fit, finish and exclusivity of that watch comes anywhere close to justifying the $10,000 price tag. Which is what makes it ironic for you to laugh at people paying high prices for premium cables they are convinced will make a positive difference in their system, regardless of whether you share that belief.

Vanity and ego? Maybe subconciously, sure. Mostly, I like things, so I buy them. hah. And no, the fit/finish don't justify the price tag, but at least there is real engineering in them and they're difficult to design/build. Nice watch movements are impressive things... that is why they're cool to me.

But seriously, I am not mad at you for buying nice cables. I get it. I just don't get the same placebo that you do from buying mine.

 

[Gordon Gray]

but at least there is real engineering in them and they're difficult to design/build.

If you have any interest in cable engineering, you may want to check the Shunyata Research website and specifically their signal distortion and noise reduction technologies used in various products.

This research has been used to enhance "medical electrophysiology" imaging used in cardiology clinics and heart surgery.

Price aside, I suspect other boutique wire brands have their own unique engineering which they choose not to disclose.

Just a thought.

 

[Hocky]

The pages that were certainly created by their marketing group? Got it. Looks impressive.

 

[Rich]

Vanity and ego? Maybe subconciously, sure. Mostly, I like things, so I buy them. hah. And no, the fit/finish don't justify the price tag, but at least there is real engineering in them and they're difficult to design/build. Nice watch movements are impressive things... that is why they're cool to me.

But seriously, I am not mad at you for buying nice cables. I get it. I just don't get the same placebo that you do from buying mine.

Hocky, you seem to be mixing up responses from me and responses from Gordon. Some of what you say in this comment seems to be responding to Gordon's previous comments and some is responding to my quoted comment. No big deal. It gets confusing in long threads like this with multiple people having multiple conversations. Just thought I would point that out. It's all good discussion as far as I'm concerned. There will always be controversy between the subjectivists and the objectivists. I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, seeing the good points and bad points of both extremes. Personally, I don't see the point in spending huge dollars on cables, nor do I see the point in cheaping out on the wire that connects my high end components. I buy quality wire that is well-designed and has the electrical specifications I believe are optimal for the intended use. And it doesn't cost me a fortune.

 

[Gordon Gray]

The pages that were certainly created by their marketing group? Got it. Looks impressive.

I think Shunyata (SR) really tries to explain the research and tech behind their products. I personally wouldn't call that marketing but a good faith effort to inform the potential buyer of what matters to Shunyata and why.

Having numerous SR products in my system, I can tell you that it also sounds impressive.

 

[twich54]

Mark,

Out of curiosity, what is your price ceiling for a one meter interconnect or 1.5 meter power cable or an eight foot pair of speaker cables before one ascends into your "high price / premium" cable?

Gordon

PS: Let's stay with copper since silver is generally more expensive.

I like that question Gordon because it leads into some of my biases with respect to cables (wire). Can I play along ?

 

[amey01]

Wow - this thread has generated more bandwidth than the good old MLOC has seen in years!

Just out of interest - despite all the arguing, does anyone here actually run lamp cord or coathanger wire?

Presuming the response, I think we all agree our [[analogue]] cables need to be of reasonable quality and can impact the sound.

For me, it's just a matter of where to direct energy, thought, and $$.

-------

As for watches, helicopters and whatever else has come into discussion here, I think high end hi-fi system falls into the same category as any of these. Every hi-fi system on these pages is well in excess of what anyone needs to spend in order to get music in their life (except maybe Rich's system - but who would know? :devil

But as we are discussing how to get the best quality sound out of hi-fi systems then it is reasonable to have discussions on what is important and what is not. Whether you choose a $10,000 watch or a $100 watch is irrleevant.

 

[Rich]

As for watches, helicopters and whatever else has come into discussion here, I think high end hi-fi system falls into the same category as any of these. Every hi-fi system on these pages is well in excess of what anyone needs to spend in order to get music in their life (except maybe Rich's system - but who would know? :devil

But as we are discussing how to get the best quality sound out of hi-fi systems then it is reasonable to have discussions on what is important and what is not. Whether you choose a $10,000 watch or a $100 watch is irrleevant.

I agree, Adam. My intention in bringing up the watches/helicopters was simply to point out the irony of someone spending $10 grand on a watch or $50 grand on toy helicopters and then turn around and imply people were foolish for buying high end cables. We all have our vices...

As for my system, what are you on about? You think Bose and Fisher Price are cheap?

 

[timm]

Haha. I think all of this is good. You know - us that really want to be transported and taken away do get obsessed. Is it so bad if someone 'hears' a difference if this is what grinds their gears? Who is really worse off? The one that 'hears' it or the one that doesn't ? I'll take the former camp. I remember buying vibrapods for the hell of it and putting them under my transport -and thinking this is silly ...oh well... I heard a subtle difference. It made me happy. I don't care if I imagined it. It put a smile on my face.

Gordon. Let me know about the shunyata. Caelin seems like a great guy. Sometimes he hangs out on audio afficionado in the shunyata forum as well as the Maggie forum. He has 20.7s.