Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[RCHeliGuy]

Seems like you are "bending" a bit in you absolutism. That's a good thing.

Hardly.

I was more pointing out that I hear differences in how my stereo system sounds frequently enough without changing a thing.

This goes to Bernard's comment. You can sit in an ever so slightly different position, or just be in a better mood or flush with adrenaline from exercising and hear differences in sound quality without changing one thing in your stereo system. You might just have it at a slightly different volume, or played back to back with something else that causes you to notice something for the first time.

 

[Bernard]

Hardly.

I was more pointing out that I hear differences in how my stereo system sounds frequently enough without changing a thing.

This goes to Bernard's comment. You can sit in an ever so slightly different position, or just be in a better mood or flush with adrenaline from exercising and hear differences in sound quality without changing one thing in your stereo system. You might just have it at a slightly different volume, or played back to back with something else that causes you to notice something for the first time.

Mark, except that in this case I DID make a change, and my wife heard a difference, without her knowing about the change. But yes, your psychological state can affect what you hear. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

[amey01]

hardly.

I was more pointing out that i hear differences in how my stereo system sounds frequently enough without changing a thing.

This goes to bernard's comment. You can sit in an ever so slightly different position, or just be in a better mood or flush with adrenaline from exercising and hear differences in sound quality without changing one thing in your stereo system.

This is why i started the wine and cheese thread!!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hardly.

I was more pointing out that I hear differences in how my stereo system sounds frequently enough without changing a thing. When I am tired, that's the way the music sounds. Happy and energized, sure sounds much better.

or just be in a better mood or flush with adrenaline from exercising and hear differences in sound quality without changing one thing in your stereo system. You might just have it at a slightly different volume, or played back to back with something else that causes you to notice something for the first time.

I agree with this phenomena and have experienced it myself. One's mood, physical state does impact what one hears.

Having said that, I would suggest that you can separate individual events from the norm (general repeatability) of numerous, similar experiences over the long haul. The individual events are called anomalies.

I also agree with you regarding "Reinforcement Theory" and how it is also applicable to your point of view.

I do not believe that you can simply "disconnect" your physical senses (in this case aural) and what your ears are telling you after an extended audition. To me, this truly is "silly".

The best example I can think of is the guy who walks barefooted across hot coals and doesn't feel or physically react to any heat.

It's been fun and no-one has moved anybody else's "needle". Predictable in the end.

So I will close with my most recent audio venture.

I've been auditioning a new power cord over the last two weeks. Per this manufacturer confirmed by my personal experience and others who have tried the product, it needs to "burn in". I used the cord to power a fan 24 / 7 for approx. 2 weeks.

Over this period, I've inserted it into the system on several occasions (first time after 7 days, 8 days and then again at 10 and 12) and was not happy with the sound.

This morning, after 14 days of burn in, I reinserted and:

1) It finally "broke in" and I will now seriously consider keeping it. Prior to this morning and based on my previous listening tests, it was going back.

OR

2) My expectation bias finally kicks. That being that I would hear a positive difference despite several failed attempts to experience that bias.

PS: Gonna verify the fact that it is or is not a bias with some hours of listening over the next couple of days.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Sorry Gordon, you lost me at burning in a power cable :ROFL:

Breaking in a power cable is code for a way to trick someone into hearing something that doesn't exist.


I would love to hear what is supposed to change in a copper wire just by running current through it.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

Thank you for making another insulting, disparaging comment and your inability to understand that an opinion or observation that differs from your reality is not valid.

You sound like someone who voted for DT.

Bye.

Gordon

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Sorry, but this is like saying that you have to cast a spell on the wires before they sound right.

You literally said that when you first put these new power cables on that it didn't sound right and then magically after powering a fan with that same cable they suddenly sound good.

In my eyes you are just digging yourself in deeper and deeper and losing more and more credibility when talking about what you hear.


Now I realize you see me as being ignorant judging by your DT comment. In my eyes you are a believer in fiction. In your eyes I don't know what I am talking about.

This thread wasn't going in a constructive direction. It effectively became two sides with each side digging their heals in harder and harder.

I'm sure your stereo sounds wonderful. I just don't believe the wiring plays the role you believe it plays.

Sorry.

 

[Hocky]

Mark, except that in this case I DID make a change, and my wife heard a difference, without her knowing about the change. But yes, your psychological state can affect what you hear. We just have to agree to disagree.

If your wife could hear a difference in your system from cabling changesthag was so drastic to be noticeable from casual listening while passing by, something in that system was or is broken.

 

[Bernard]

If your wife could hear a difference in your system from cabling changesthag was so drastic to be noticeable from casual listening while passing by, something in that system was or is broken.

So what you are saying is that if a system sounds fine, but then sounds better because of a cabling change, something was broken in the first instance, even though it sounded fine. I would like to believe that if something were broken I would hear it.

But then, if you don't believe that cables can make a difference, you can always explain away differences that others perceive!

 

[timm]

I hear differences Gordon. . About 5 years ago I bought a new pre. Up to that time - at least 30 years of listening to stereo equipment and preamps in my system - I heard no real difference. I took a chance and purchased a new one and my jaw hit the floor. Point being - I had 30 years of experience - I too could have jumped to a conclusion that a preamp was not that important as long as it was a 'decent one' that passed the signal. I'm glad I did not. Cables bring slight diffs too. Monster cable brought slight sibilance- audioquest mid line cable took that away.

Re USB. Guys have used expensive cables and then used a cheap one like marks and have heard differences. However, these same guys put an uptone regen in the mix and state now both cables sound the same. So if they have biases about cables - the regen somehow fixes whatever issue they were hearing between the esoteric cable and the radio shack cable. So the USB cable WAS doing something to the sound. the regen acted as a buffer between the source and the dac and fixed whatever ills the cheap cable brought to the mix.

So in this test we have people that have plunked down good cash for a USB cable and agree that a cheap cable now sounds as good when both are plugged into a regen. You would think if they had drunk the cable koolaid they would have rejected this result. They did not. Probably because they actually listened. However I think it is a good example - and a nice test with USB. There has been a lot written on jitter and timing.

 

[Hocky]

So what you are saying is that if a system sounds fine, but then sounds better because of a cabling change, something was broken in the first instance, even though it sounded fine. I would like to believe that if something were broken I would hear it.

But then, if you don't believe that cables can make a difference, you can always explain away differences that others perceive!

No, I am saying that no component change short of something that is broken, massive EQ, or replacing speakers in a room could net a change so great that someone casually hearing it without knowing about the change could detect it. That is entirely illogical. The change that any of this stuff could create is very, very small unless it is broken. Like it or not, your stereo is 98% speakers and room.

 

[timm]

No, I am saying that no component change short of something that is broken, massive EQ, or replacing speakers in a room could net a change so great that someone casually hearing it without knowing about the change could detect it. That is entirely illogical. The change that any of this stuff could create is very, very small unless it is broken. Like it or not, your stereo is 98% speakers and room.

I agree with your statement on room and speakers for the most part. But would probably lower that percentage a bit. And disagree with everything else. Define 'broken'.

 

[amey01]

So if they have biases about cables - the regen somehow fixes whatever issue they were hearing between the esoteric cable and the radio shack cable. So the USB cable WAS doing something to the sound. the regen acted as a buffer between the source and the dac and fixed whatever ills the cheap cable brought to the mix.

This is applying analogue thinking to a digital connection (which is fundamentally different).

A USB cable (or regen - whatever that is supposed to do) can categorically and unequovically make no difference!

Computers around the world transfer petabytes of data every damned second. If we cound not rely on computers to transfer data accurately (without bloody USB regens or fancy cables) then we'd have far bigger problems in a very short space of time.

Music travelling on a USB cable is just data - exactly like your banking information or share record or health records.

Saying USB cables make a difference is as absurd as saying Western Digital hard disks sound better than Segate ones, or songs downloaded from servers in Germany sound better than songs downloaded from England; or my Vantage internet connection sounds better than a friend's Telstra one. It's patently absurd.

on jitter and timing.

Neither of which exist on async USB connections (by definition). That's what "asynchronous" means.

 

[timm]

This is applying analogue thinking to a digital connection (which is fundamentally different).

A USB cable (or regen - whatever that is supposed to do) can categorically and unequovically make no difference!

Computers around the world transfer petabytes of data every damned second. If we cound not rely on computers to transfer data accurately (without bloody USB regens or fancy cables) then we'd have far bigger problems in a very short space of time.

Music travelling on a USB cable is just data - exactly like your banking information or share record or health records.

Saying USB cables make a difference is as absurd as saying Western Digital hard disks sound better than Segate ones, or songs downloaded from servers in Germany sound better than songs downloaded from England; or my Vantage internet connection sounds better than a friend's Telstra one. It's patently absurd.




Neither of which exist on async USB connections (by definition). That's what "asynchronous" means.

And yet people hear a difference.

 

[timm]

I know without listening and quite frankly without understanding the inner workings of a DAC that in some of your heads things are impossible. But that thesis is based on your limited knowledge. It is said that people justify this expenditure and pretend they hear 'betterness'. However, the same could be said for someone that didn't want to spend the money. 'It can't possibly be better... what I have is quite satisfactory ...no need to spend more... ahh I feel better about my decisions now!!'

I think people are saying - just listen. People argue the science without even knowing it. If you have listened and think there is no difference in cables wire etc... then good for you. If you haven't listened and are making assumptions based on file transfers of a word document ... well I think there is more variables since I do hear differences

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I know without listening and quite frankly without understanding the inner workings of a DAC that in some of your heads things are impossible.

FWIW I used to work in professional audio and specifically on a digital mastering console and more specifically than that on writing software that moved the data that is music around.

Please trust me when I confirm what was stated earlier. A bit is a bit whether it is music, a picture or a spreadsheet.

There is no way for a USB cable to impact the sound of music. It is completely impossible.

Just because people project their desire to improve sound quality into a cable and because of that desire they hear something that doesn't exist doesn't mean that the music has actually improved.

 

[amey01]

and quite frankly without understanding the inner workings of a DAC that in some of your heads things are impossible. But that thesis is based on your limited knowledge.

What a pathetically patronising little comment that one is.

Would you like to enlighten us all buddy?............what, exactly, is this "understanding of inner workings of DACs" that I fail to comprehend? And what magically makes it possible for a USB cable to impart an impact on sound quality?

At the moment, the only person with glaring "limited knowledge" is you ; if you are trying to proclaim there is jitter or timing issues on asynchronous connections. In fact, that shows you have not even looked up the word "asynchronous" in the dictionary!

Please "unlimit" my "limited knowledge".

Over to you......go.

I'm waiting.

 

[Bernard]

I agree with your statement on room and speakers for the most part. But would probably lower that percentage a bit. And disagree with everything else. Define 'broken'.

I agree with your disagreement timm.

I would hate to think that I have had a system that was "broken" in some way or the other ever since I bought my Quad 57s in 1978. I always thought it was a revealing system in its various incarnations.

Curiously, Peter Walker (designer of the Quads) once said that all competently-designed amplifiers should sound the same. The Quads, however, easily revealed differences between amplifiers.

 

[Hocky]

USB cables can sound quite different - if it is bad enough to be causing massive packet loss thus creating gaps in data and skipping. Again, broken.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

USB cables can sound quite different - if it is bad enough to be causing massive packet loss thus creating gaps in data and skipping. Again, broken.

The key point is that this is a binary situation. There is no in between.

Either the data is flowing or it is not.

As long as you have adequate shielding which my $7 USB cable has and you have a solid connection which almost all USB cables will provide the data will get from A to B.

The other issue which is being skipped is that a USB cable can transfer data faster than a music data stream requires and there is a buffer on the input of the DAC.

What this means is that the data is transferred in a chunk which is more than the DAC can handle so it is stored and waits for the DAC to catch up.

Think of this like transferring a music file that you copy from your media server to a backup drive.

Chunks of the music files's contents arrive and are stored and waiting for the DAC.

Depending on the communication protocol if for some reason the checksum doesn't match, a chunk of data can be transmitted a second time.

Meanwhile the DAC is chugging away on its buffer completely ignorant of how the data is getting to its buffer.

As an example, my Sabre DAC has a buffer size of 256K bytes.

For 16bit music that is 128,000 samples of data at at 44.1kHz that is about 3 seconds of music waiting patiently for the DAC.
For 24bit music that is 85,000 samples of data at 192kHz that is .3 seconds of music.

The buffer is 256K and the USB cable can transfer up to 240 times that amount but more realistically 120 times that with hand shaking in one second.

What that means is that for the VAST majority of the time there is no music being sent to your DAC. It is sent in chunks, fills up the DAC's buffer and then twiddles it's thumbs for a while.

Even at 192kHZ 24 bits the cable only need to send data about 1/36th of the time.

For normal CD material the cable only needs to send data about 1/360 of the time.