Vantage Vs Summit

[bonesetter]

toe-in on Vantage

As an update, I have been listening to the Vantage's for about a couple of weeks, and it wasn't until a couple of days ago that i've gotten the placement sorted out

I now have them toed-in toward my listening position so I am in line with the inside edge of the woofer. This means the speaker axis crosses just behind my head. Speakers are 8' apart, listening position 10'6' from each speaker panel

The previous positioning had toe-in with the thirds rule (2/3rds toe-in). But I found the bass was 'shuddering' and the sweet spot was weak, small and shifted easily from one piece of music to another. The new toe-in has snapped everything right into place

This alteration was after reading through these postings, and from Joey's Vantage experiences - Happy Birthday by the way, like me you're on the magical 23rd How often does that number crop up?)

I like what the Vantage does, alot. So much so, as i've arranged with my dealer to try out the Sumnmit's (arriving tomorrow )

 

[bonesetter]

Well, 3 days into the Summits, and after 2 days of setting up (struggled a bit...), things are coming around - Just listened to Miles' Jack Johnson - Right Off, at high volume... pretty awsome

I loved the way my 802's used to soar, but these do it so much better, and with the slam of realism.... great stuff!

 

[sleepysurf]

Now for the BIG question... do the Summits sound $5000 better than the Vantages? Are you (like Joey) already contemplating moving up to the ML flagship?

I'm planning on upgrading from my Aerius i's to the Vantages, but will probably audition the Vistas as well (since I'm already bi-amping).

I really wish I could hear a side by side comparison of the Summits, Vantages, and Vistas, but I doubt my local Sound Advice (Tweeter) dealer will accommodate me!

 

[jjqiv]

Just listened to Miles' Jack Johnson - Right Off, at high volume... pretty awsome

Yep, that is cool album. I will have to queue it up this evening.

 

[twich54]

Now for the BIG question... do the Summits sound $5000 better than the Vantages? Are you (like Joey) already contemplating moving up to the ML flagship?

I believe it comes down to budget and room size. I had the opportunity to audition both in a size room equal to mine (approx 400 sq ft), albeit sonically superior to mine. That demonstration proved to me that somewhere in the 350-400 sq ft range is where the summitt's take over, cieling ht being a factor as well. That being said I looked at the 5k diiferential and saw what it could do for me with repect to superior upstream compontetry and the answer became a "no-brainer".

With room sizes under 350 sq ft, the Vantage's coupled with top flight componetry will rival the Sumitt's with ease.

Ok, Sumitt owners........Flame away !!

 

[Craig]

I really wish I could hear a side by side comparison of the Summits, Vantages, and Vistas, but I doubt my local Sound Advice (Tweeter) dealer will accommodate me!

I'm sure they would be glad to accomodate you. I know of at least one store in our area that has all three. Give me a call I'd like to go audition them with you. I'm also considering adding a sub to my HT or maybe even for 2 channel and haven't heard one of those in a while. Give me a call this weekend if you want to borrow my tube pre.

That demonstration proved to me that somewhere in the 350-400 sq ft range is where the summitt's take over, cieling ht being a factor as well. That being said I looked at the 5k diiferential and saw what it could do for me with repect to superior upstream compontetry and the answer became a "no-brainer".

As a Summit owner, I'm not flamed...I'm in agreement. Although I think the Summits sound great in a small room as well but the larger room with correct dimension and acoustics will bring the most from them. The Vantages are a great value. They offer a lot of speaker for the priced when compared to the Summits. Considering you have a $10K budget to play with, the $5K savings on the Vantages will of course allow you to focus on upgrading other shortfalls in your system such as adding a subwoofer upgrading to a new SS or Tube amp, CD front end, turntable, pre or phono amp. Sure the Summits are a better speaker but the Vantage or even the Vistas are no slouch either.

 

[bonesetter]

How are you measuring the sq ft area Dave? My room is 16 x 12 x 8' I think i'm confusing Volume (L x W x H)

 

[twich54]

How are you measuring the sq ft area Dave? My room is 16 x 12 x 8' I think i'm confusing Volume (L x W x H)

Hi Bonesetter, yes I was refering to "floor space" ie. your 16x12 dimension. In your case less than 200 sq ft. IMHO an area that small, your wasting your $$$ on the Summitt's, other than feeding ones ego of course ! Heck one might even say the Vantage's could over power that size of a room.

 

[bonesetter]

Hi Bonesetter, yes I was refering to "floor space" ie. your 16x12 dimension. In your case less than 200 sq ft. Heck one might even say the Vantage's could over power that size of a room.

Hmmm.... so, I shouldn't even be considering the Summit for my room size?

At the moment I am still struggling with placement. I can't get a stable or focused centre image, no matter how much toe-in

 

[Gordon Gray]

set up / toe in angle

Bonesetter,

For what its worth, I find the ML toe in recommendation stated in the owner's manual to be a great place to start. Toe in so you are listening to the "inside" 1/3rd of the panel. Easy to check out with a flashlight. The Summit is my fourth and last pair of ML's. I set the toe in angle on the other 3 models I've owned (CLS2A's, Aerius, and the SL3's) and I find that recommended ML rule of thumb to give one the right combination of solid center immaging with a wide, deep, three dimensional soundstage. I have my Summits approx. 48" from panel front to back wall. My room is somewhat on the live side. Similar setup with the SL3's.

Maybe you have too much toe in or not enough horizontal space between the panels and the back wall. Also check that the distance from the back wall is within 1/8" for both speakers. Yes, they are that sensitive. Good luck and keep trying. The Summits are an incredible speaker.

GG

 

[twich54]

Hmmm.... so, I shouldn't even be considering the Summit for my room size?

It's your $$$, but given your dimensions, I'd so no. Not knowing what your upstream componets are, I'd put the differential dollars to good use their.

 

[bonesetter]

Well, after another couple of sessions working on placement of the new Summits, I can't help thinking what I have is a pair of unmatched speakers (is this a totally mad thought, or can ML's be unmatched?)

They were delivered to me by the importer himself with no boxes, and they have no serial number labels on their back panels...?

Right from the off I had one speaker sounding 'louder' so I switched them, and it still sounded louder. Just this morning I have switched it back, and the whole thing skews to that side

This means I can't get the image to centralise, and therefore get everything to synergise. I've tried everything I can think of and things have improved, but still if i move my head laterally in the listening position the sound is biased toward the 'louder speaker'

Any thoughts anyone???

 

[MJN]

"with no boxes, and they have no serial number labels on their back panels"...

No ML "expert" ships the panels without the original boxes I was told (given the risk of damage to the expensive panels)! Are you sure they speakers are not used ones? Did you get the warranty registration card (2x) with your speakers? I would go back and talk to the "importer"! Who was it it? I guess in the UK there is only one (or a few) authorized dealers.

 

[DTB300]

They were delivered to me by the importer himself with no boxes, and they have no serial number labels on their back panels...?

BIG Red Flag for me with this statement....Time to call ML...

Dan

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I agree here. These should not be a problem. I would call or email ML and give them all the details!!

Jeff

 

[bonesetter]

The 'importer' is coming arond again later in the week to 'set them up'

Meanwhile I've managed to bring them closer together (88" centre to centre, which is nearer than I would think correct - just doesn't look right) with slightly less toe-in, thus minimising the imbalance. While this does improve matters, the sound is poor and somehow disjointed

Still think I have been given a mismatched pair. I imagine a bloke at the end of production of these speakers fine tuning the panel and internal amps for output matching... watch this space

 

[sleepysurf]

How 'bout posting a picture of your current setup, and room, so folks can have a look and make some suggestions? Something is not right if you're having THAT much difficulty getting them set up properly. Even MY setup, with a chunky wall unit and RPTV, sounds decent.

 

[bonesetter]

Here are some photos of my listening room (16' x 12' x 8') Hope they help

The 3 paintings are each 33' square and made of stretched canvas tacked onto a frame)

 

[sleepysurf]

Hmmm, the room *is* a bit on the smaller side, but cozy looking. Have you tried listening with the window drapes entirely closed, to test the effect of eliminating rear reflections off the windows?

Also, is that a "working" fireplace? If not, you might try positioning the speakers even closer to the fireplace, but with minimal toe-in, such that the (open) drapes help diffuse the rear sound.

In the end, having your ML dealer actually come over to "set them up" sounds like your best bet. Once he sees the room layout, you can discuss whether the Vantages might suit you better.

 

[bonesetter]

Thanks for the input Sleepysurf

Yes, I have tried closing the drapes - that makes all but a very slight difference

All the speakers i have owned since living here (10 years, and probably as many speakers) i have always placed farther apart (and farther back) than the Summits are now, and they have ALL worked fine, including Nautilus 802's and a pair of Vantage's

The importer delivered these Summits here into my room, and the first question i asked him was if the Summit would work - he replied most certainly they would, and i should START by positioning the Summit in the same place

I will try closer in and less toe, though as i said a few posts back I really think I have a pair of mismatched speakers...

thanks again