New CLX Owner

[Bernard]

Mike,

All of the music you have tried seems to have been rock or a variation thereof, and who knows what the producers have done with the material; you have already indicated that Metallica is inherently bright. May I suggest that you try other types of music, perhaps a Chesky CD as Chesky's recordings are very natural-sounding (no weird equalization). I would recommend Ana Caram's "Rio After Dark".

Is it possible that you just do not like the sound of CD's ?

Is there some way to shoehorn a tube buffer into your Krell system ?

Are you perhaps just overloading the room when you crank it up ? Question for Ethan here, as I am no acoustician.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Bernard

I will take you up on your recommendations for CD recordings. If I experience a harshness at higher volumes then this will be another confirmation.

I have never had an issue with listening to CD's in the past but then again I have never heard them played through such a detailed system. Analog is on my list but I still think I have a room, cable or vibration resonance problem.

If the room and cables are not contributing then I would logically start with a tube preamp to see the effects and then move to the tube amp if necessary. I am harassing my local dealer to get me some stuff to demo so we will see what happens.

Overload is certainly a strong possibility. My room is not that large even though it is open on the sides and above to a loft. I have a lot of untreated wall space on the front and back walls due to my wife's art. The art is aeronautical paints on a canvas sheet framed with wood. I may have to experiment with taking these out of the room in case they are adding to my high frequency challenge.

Certainly not a lack of things to try. Thx for your recommendations.

 

[David Matz]

Mike,

A few additional thoughts:

- Jonathan Valin has an open forum thread on the CLX. Since you quote his review, you may want to post your question about the highs there.
http://www.avguide.com/forums/martinlogan-clx
- Another individual, a dealer named Elliott Goldman, uses Krell Evo to demo the CLX. He participates in the same thread.
- If you do have a chance to come up to Chicago, Burke has built a reference room. Although it may be crazy to haul the CLX there (heck do it if you can!), you can probably throw the electronocs in the car and listen in his room to see what the Summit can do. I think you would get a pretty good idea of what a good room sounds like with most of your equipment and music that way. I can also bring the act 2 so you can hear the difference. (Looks like the 1/25 won't happen due to damage to the Sanders speakers at CES, but we can work out other dates.)

 

[mgakathereaper]

David

Thanks for the link to the other forum. I had not seen this and as you noted it looks like there are some similar system configurations. I will definitely read through the thread and then pose some of my questions. Nice find.

Thanks for the heads up on the Chicago gig. I will jump on that thread to see what new dates materialize. The CLX's might be a stretch but I would consider hauling my Krell stuff.

 

[mgakathereaper]

David

Both Elliot and Jonathan have replied to me in the other forum and even though Jonathan did not take SPL readings, he does not believe they would distort at only 80 dB. Elliot has confirmed that his EVO gear on the CLX's does not sound harsh at higher levels. I will be talking with him in more detail today or tomorrow.

Thx again for the link. So far things are still pointing to my room or cables versus components.

 

[User211]

Great advice, David.

For what it's worth, I listened to Metallica - A Nightmare Long last night (loud). I thought the recording quality was excellent. Stacks of detail. In fact, I may buy it!

 

[tonepub]

You know, one thing you might consider (as I'm assuming that you are in the income bracket to afford it) is to hire Jim Smith for a day. Fly him out and have him dial everything in for you.

He's one of the best in the business. Avante Gard speakers are probably one of the toughest (if not THE toughest) speakers to get to sound good, and he always did it consistently when he was their rep.

I talked to him at CES and I'm pretty sure his fee was around $500 a day plus travel.

If that saves you from buying a couple pairs of cables, etc. It will be money well spent. If that guy can't get your room to sound good, I doubt anyone can. Might be worth the $$ just for the piece of mind and he's a heck of a nice guy in person too...

And because he's had his hands on so many different types of gear over the years, he'll be able to be very objective when making suggestions.

 

[C.A.P]

krell..........C.A.P like Krell............Lol........I detest the name


Ok Before dismising gear. I would go after the room first. CLX are very revealing. one inch in positioning or seating can be the difference in Miesterkugen Hall and hall of hell.

Excuse my forgetfullness (I can't remember) but if you have a Krell pre amp ; Have you tried CAST IC?

Krell is not for everyone but do not discount the room and set up.

I have heard the CLX a few times and have agood foundation of how they sound.

 

[User211]

krell..........C.A.P like Krell............Lol........I detest the name

Monsters from the id! I give you the Krell laboratory.

I love it. Dan woke up one day, watched Forbidden Planet, and got inspired. See the amps in the background of the pic? I think some of the older Krells were styled on it. Cool film. I have the DVD so I'll rip a shot and improve the pic and get rid of the white background.

Of course, Nelson Pass may have watched the same film...

Back to topic...

EDIT: Hm, the DVD has gome walkies so we'll have to make do with this shot. And actually, some of the older Krells aren't that closely styled on it - the KAS probably had the closest meters. Sure the name must have originated from this though.

Doc Ostrow: The total potential here must be nothing less than astronomical.
Dr. Morbius: Nothing less. The number 10 raised almost literally to the power of infinity.

Alright Dan, father of the Master Reference, no need to take it literally!!!

 

[mgakathereaper]

User211 - Good to see some other Metallica listeners hear. I typically like the old Metallica all the way up to there Black album but the song you mention off the Death Magnet effort is pretty solid. I got a good laugh out of your Forbidden Planet reference.

tonepub - Good endorsement for Jim Smith. His book should be arriving at my home today and it is certainly in the cards to get him to come out to my house. I will probably digest the contents of his book first and see how good I can get things and then schedule him out for a visit. I just think it will be a great learning experience and peace of mind that I exhausted all options before swapping equipment. Thx for the tip.

C.A.P. - Yep. Starting with the room. I am currently moving my speakers around again to see what might be influencing what I hear. I am running Transparent CAST cables between my EVO 202 Pre-Amp and my EVO 402 Amp. Once I get my EVO 505 SACD player then I will run a pure CAST system.

A few notes:

- I had a dealer over for a listen and I had not told him about the high frequencies I was having because I did not want to taint his opinion. After a few songs he made no mention of it. I had portions of songs at about the 80 or 90 dB range. I think he was just overwhelmed with all the other aspects that the high frequencies were not his focus.

- When listening to songs that average in the 70 dB level, I get peaks around 80 when I am experiencing the high frequency phenomenon. This again leads me to a room issue since I appear to be getting a 10 dB gain at certain frequencies. I am using a Radio Shack sound meter set to Fast response and C-Weighted for my SPL measurements.

 

[C.A.P]

Are you setting the SPL meter on a tripod and having everything else in the house off. High frequencies can really travel. You would be surprised what a fridge motor will do to a room sweep. Do not hold onto the SPL meter either, You must be standing a bit back dead still.

With that being said. Transparent were good but the Krell Silvers sound better for me. The Nordost MMF I have not tried. No one has them !

Play with the tilt and the toe. Do not be afraid to get them a bit closer to the side wall. ML disperse so well its not as bad as a issue. I have my CLS fairly close to the sides. (room dictates it) Remember them CLX need space between them to open up.

Again Excuse me for not reading the whole thread over but if you do not get some center treatment between them on the rear wall. It will calm down the brightness at louder vol. Look at the one I made. Its a panel with 1 inch acusta stuff and red burlap with some space behind it. NOT a bass Trap or a HF trap but a tamer in a seance. It helped emencly !

 

[mgakathereaper]

C.A.P - I have the SPL meter on a tripod for my general measurements. When I play test tones or really want to listen I make sure I turn off the heat, ceiling fans, computers, etc.

I did a fair amount of research on CAST cables and Transparent seemed to get the nod. It may be in my best interest to try the Nordost MMF for comparison. I will add this to my list.

Funny you should mention tilt. This afternoon I move the speakers out from the front wall so they are now about 3.5 ft from the wall, 11.5 ft apart and 12 ft from sitting position. I then adjusted the spikes to make them parallel to the floor versus the default tilt. I must say, it did not improve the frequency issue but it seemed to improve the imaging. I will try the equilateral triangle as well. Your comment on sidewalls is valid. In my scenario with the CLX's off the front wall 3.5 ft, I essentially dont have sidewalls because the room is open on both sides (see diagrams on page 6 of this thread).

I have treatments behind the CLX's. Mondo Bass Traps in the corners and Mini-Traps (diffusion) directly behind them. I have a 73" TV in the middle and I have experimented with panels behind it as well as a blanket over it. Laying a Mini-Trap on the back of the TV seems to assist some and the blanket helps with some imaging by minimizing reflections off the face (check out photos on pg 7 of this thread).

These things just keep sounding better...

 

[tonepub]

I hate to disagree with you guys, but get those CLX's as far away
from the side walls as you can and you will be rewarded....

When I put mine on the short wall (2.5 feet on each side) all the
magic was gone.

Just my two cents worth!

 

[mgakathereaper]

tonepub - because my sidewalls are essentially open to other rooms, I have not noticed an improvement my moving them closer to the center. They both sound good, but I prefer the wider spread which emulates a wider sound stage. Attached is a diagram showing my current speaker and sub locations. It shows how the room is open on the sides.

In any case, I will move then around some more to confirm.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Well I received Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" yesterday and if anyone is looking to get more out the system then I think this is a no brainer. I should have bought this book prior to setting anything up. I might record my current setup and then clean slate the room and start with Jim's recommendations.

Regardless of how far I get with the book, I will still investigate an on site consult with Jim. I think this would be awesome for the shear learning experience.

 

[Brad225]

mgakathereaper, Jim's book looks interesting I read some more info on line about it from others that had purchased it. I think I may pick up a copy.

Does he have anything specific about stats since their dispersion is different from coned speakers?

One thing it talked about is the listening distance. His formula is measuring the distance from the center of the tweeters and that should be 83% of the distance of the tweeter to your ears. That makes for some very close listening position. I would think it borders on learfield listening. I measured on my CLS's the center of the panels are 8'-4"" apart. That means I would need to sit 10'-0"" from the panel. At that position I am 9' in front of the speakers.
Without towing in the speakers a lot more that's sitting in the front row at the theater.
I am not saying he is not correct. Just an observation that it is so much different than where I listen now, which is probably 17-18" from the panels.

How does your current setup compare to his .83% ratio.

 

[tonepub]

tonepub - because my sidewalls are essentially open to other rooms, I have not noticed an improvement my moving them closer to the center. They both sound good, but I prefer the wider spread which emulates a wider sound stage. Attached is a diagram showing my current speaker and sub locations. It shows how the room is open on the sides.

In any case, I will move then around some more to confirm.

You have a different situation, not having sidewalls right by the speakers!

Too bad these darn things are so heavy, they discourage casual tweeking!

What I've really noticed is the key with the CLX, is to get each panel as close to the other one in orientation. You can experiment with rake angle,
but considering the size and weight of the speakers, it might be easier to just move your couch back and forth within a two foot range...

The critical thing is to have each speaker as close to identical in all three planes. The closer you can nail that, the more three dimensionality you will get with them. You will also get a lot more solid bass response just out of the CLX the tighter you can have each speaker aligned to each other as well.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Brad225 - The book has a section on panels but it focuses on tilt and bracing for the most part. Throughout the book Jim will point out panel differences when it makes sense. Jim has setup Magneplanars, Martin Logans, Quads, Sound Las, Emminent Technology, Final Sound, Apogee, etc. so he certainly has the experience. The 83% you speak of is essentially a "rule of thumb" based on setting up thousands of systems. It is a good place to start but he admits that Planars are somewhat of a different beast and can range from 70-80% typically. For my room, I was at about 85% before reading the book and I am going to experiment with moving them some more based on his tips.

tonepub - Yes my room is certainly unique. I can manage the heave aspects but I had to remove the spikes while I do some fairly aggressive adjustments. I am on carpet so I can get away with sliding then when I have to. I concur with your placement symmetry observation. I have them within 1/8 of an inch tolerance in all dimensions and have purchased a laser device to get it even better once I go through some of Jim's tips.

I have setup the Room Eq Wizard software on my laptop and I am getting up to speed on running and interpreting the results properly. This will give me exponentially more info than what the Anthem Room Correction setup was getting me. Between this and using Jim's tips I should be able to really determine any acoustic issues I have and address them through placement and/or additional treatments.

 

[tonepub]

Sounds like you are on the right track....

Also as another touch, try the CLX's with the rubber bumpers
and the spikes, you might prefer them non spiked. Really just
a matter of taste.

 

[mgakathereaper]

tonepub - I tried the CLX's yesterday with no feet, then rubber feet, then spikes. I think I like the spiked better as it seems to add to the imaging. It was a good test though which I may try again too make sure.

For the general audience I have a question on speaker cables. When I originally bought my current Kimber Monocle XL's I was leaning towards the Summits or the Spires. Now they sound good but I have read a lot of reviews that say the Kimber KS-3035 cables are a large step forward. Does anyone have real-life experience with the KS-3035's?

I have also read a lot of good reviews about the Nordost Valhalla speaker cables. Anyone here have real-life experience with these?

I am thinking I would like to try some different cables to get a better understanding of their impact.

Thanks.