New CLX Owner

[MiTT]

Yeah, I just try to never comment on anything I haven't actually heard with my own ears, thus I have no opinion on the ACT stuff.

The cables on the other hand I am very familiar with having used SR in my system now for more than 10 years.

 

[User211]

Yeah, I just try to never comment on anything I haven't actually heard with my own ears, thus I have no opinion on the ACT stuff.

The cables on the other hand I am very familiar with having used SR in my system now for more than 10 years.

Nevermind. I use Nordost, think they are very good, and now the salesman are spouting BS about longer lengths sounding better. They didn't get that from the engineers that created it, I bet.

 

[Jim Smith]

I'm way in the MINORITY on this one...

This is really the latest audio "tweek" that everyone is enamored with.

6moons loves these things.

Hmmm...

I've wanted to hear to hear these (actually before the ACT, referring here to Frank Chang's devices) in my own room, away from the crowds who seem to be able to be swayed a bit too easily.

FWIW - I've sat with Srajan listening, just he and I, on several occasions. He's a good listener. So this is especially interesting to me.

Does anyone know if the Synergistic ACT is exactly the same as Frank Chang's devices that Srajan & Marja & Henk like?

 

[mgakathereaper]

Jim

I can probably get the ACT system for a demo when you are on site. It is essentially risk free to see if there is any validity. I would be interested to see what they do without my other treatments and then in combination with my existing RealTrap treatments.

This would be something to try after getting the rest of the room where it needs to be.

I am not sure if they are the same as Frank Chang's devices.

I am certainly skeptic but open minded. If they indeed improve my system within my environment and you hear the improvement as well, then that would be enough proof for me.

We can discuss this offline in more detail to see how we want to proceed.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Be careful gentlemen.

I was the unfortunate one who started the "Marigo dots" thread.

GG

 

[mgakathereaper]

Gordon Gray - At some point I will try the Synergistic ART system but I am passing in the short term. Jim and I will be focusing on what I currently have versus any a/b type comparisons. At some point I may even try some Marigo Dots or the Marigo CD Mat.

I have been playing with some BDR (Black Diamond Racing) products and I am liking what I hear thus far. I am using a combination of Jumbo Pucks along with Mk3 and Mk4 cones in various configurations. Using them under my speakers, source and preamp seem to "warm" up the presentation a bit but I am still playing.

I now have a few Synergistic products in my system. I replaced the Richard Gray 1200C with the PowerCell 10SE for power conditioning. This unit uses a Synergistic Precision AC cord. I am also using the Hologram D cord on my EVO 505 source and a T2 on my EVO 202 Pre-Amp. I will give them a few more days to burn in but initial impressions are positive. If I am satisfied with this combination then I will demo some Apex Speaker Cables and Interconnects in the future.

I am now using Kimber Kable KS-3038 Speaker Cables which really destroy my previous Kimber Kable Monocle XL's. I am very happy with this upgrade and the roadmap for SC is to try the Synergistic Apex as noted above.

This weekend I will have Jim Smith at my house voicing my system. For those of you who don't know Jim, he wrote the book "Get Better Sound" and has been voicing systems for decades. I am looking forward to working with him and getting the most from my current system. It should be a great learning experience. For those of you with CLX's I will share with you any recommendations that improve the sound. I would like to think I have the system setup pretty good so we will see how much it can improve.

 

[tonepub]

Looking forward to hearing what he's got to say...

 

[Gordon Gray]

I am a big BDR fan.

Although a bit on the pricey side, they are very effective.

Bought the product to isolate the Summit spikes from my wood floor based on Rich's audition of my system.

GG

 

[JMAUSGP]

Ditto! This should be very interesting not only to CLX owners but I think everybody here will be curious to hear his take on the CLX.

 

[mgakathereaper]

I will try to keep this short and just highlight the main points.

First off, Jim Smith is a class act all the way and is a walking encyclopedia of audio information. He was very professional and flexible from planning, execution and follow up. He did not know me at all until I gave him a phone call. If you have not bought his book yet then I would seriously recommend buying it and if you have the ability to pay for his on site services then I would highly recommend that as well. Jim was able to take my system to the next level with components I already had.

Keep in mind I am new to higher end audio so for me I needed to better understand what "good" is supposed to sound like. I had my own perception and felt my system was sounding great before Jim arrived.

This was Jim's first exposure to Martin Logan CLX's. He had read most of the reviews and talked with a few other people so he had a general idea of what to expect. Jim spent about 2.5 days with me and my system. Outside of phone conversations and a few photos and diagrams Jim was coming into an environment he had no experience with.

Upon arrival Jim focused solely on better understanding my environment. He asked pertinent questions and there was no music played until he understood the room, the components and the reasoning for certain positions and configurations. While I had always considered my room less than ideal, Jim thought it was just fine and not a real issue.

Jim then listened to a few tracks to determine what challenges he might have for the next 2 days. The tracks he selects are ones he knows very well and so he knew what to listen for. Now I was hoping I had them setup pretty good (they sounded damn good to me and anyone else to date I put in front of them) but the look on Jim's face and body language told me otherwise. Jim's initial thoughts boiled down to:

- Lack of body
- Lack of tone
- Lack of depth
- Lack of emotion
- Flat sound staging
- Thin presentation
- Lack of sound staging "Wall"
- Overwhelming bass (but controlled)
- Both male and female vocals lacked warmth, texture and realism

While I did not take offense to his comments I was a bit surprised that I was that far off. At the same time I was now excited at the prospects of making it sound better than it already had.

Once we discussed the game plan to "fix" the system then we addressed the bass first. Changes made:

Sub Connections:
- Jim discovered that I had both Left & Right RCA connections to both subs.
- Doing these meant I was running my subs essentially as mono
- We fixed this by running the Left RCA and Right RCA to proper subs
- This might be a good way to run Theater to smooth the room but for 2-Channel this is not recommended

Sub Settings:
- There are an array of sub settings that I will not bore you with since they are room specific but I will touch on a few
- Phase for my room ended up being best at 180 degrees for both subs (I had this right at least)
- The crossover frequency was best set at 35Hz versus the CLX setting of 30Hz
- Yes I said that right. The CLX setting boosted level by 6 to 8db and did not blend and crossover optimally with the panels.
- Setting the crossover at 35Hz and upping the Level some was the cure.
- We found the 35Hz setting to be much better for my particular room and setup. This was confirmed by listening as well as using an RTA.
- We tried 40Hz as well but felt 35Hz we still the best option
- All of this was done without moving any subs. The only sub movement was pointing the woofers in different directions to see the rooms response curve but pointing them forward was the best configuration and I had them in the best position in the room.

So in summary the biggest bass improvements where connecting them properly with single RCA's creating stereo subs and using the 35Hz crossover point versus the CLX 30Hz setting.

Next we moved onto CLX changes.

CLX Positions:
- It was clear to Jim that the bulk of my issues were coming from the fact that my speakers were too far apart and not far enough from the front wall.
- We moved my speakers about 8" forward into the room and about 18" closer to each other.
- This snapped the sound staging into place.
- We toed in the speakers about 3" which corresponded to the flashlight on the inner panel recommendation.
- Jim measured the response curve of the tweeter and confirmed the inner 1/3rd is the smoothest
- With these position changes in place we now had a deeper soundstage, tone, body and overall sense of presence in the room for male and female vocals.

Next we moved to my RealTrap sound Panels

Sound Panels:
- It was clear to Jim that my 73" TV was really impacting the sound.
- We took 3 of my RealTrap MicroTraps and placed them across the front of my TV.
- This change really helps the focus of the presentation
- I then moved my RealTrap MiniTraps behind each speaker on the front wall which assisted again for improving the soundstage
- On the real wall we ended up sticking with the HF panel behind the listening seat and bass traps flanking on both sides
- I had also had a HF trap on the back of the 73" TV which he thought was necessary for additional presence.

I skipped a bunch of details around checking polarities, AC currents, RTA readings and such but most of these were minor tweaks compared to the bigger ones mentioned.

The fact that Jim can pretty much pinpoint a certain frequency that is off on certain recordings really expedited the troubleshoot process. This is not something you can learn from a book and comes from years of experience.

Conclusions:

At the end of the 2.5 days both Jim and I were very happy with the way the system sounded. Jim is very particular about voicing a system and for shows he will readily delay an opening if he is not happy with the sound. With this in mind, the biggest complement he could give was that he would open my system for a demo session. Jim commented that he would consider CLX's in his system even though he has not had electrostatics for years. He was particularly impressed with the bass response in the system and thought it was exceptional when paired with the Descent i's.

I am very happy with the process and results of working with Jim. The system sounds great and I learned a ton throughout the process. It is good to know that I have the system sounding its best within its current environment.

I should note that my general preference was for a bit too much bass in my system which was destroying the details and tonality of most music. I can now appreciate a seamless bass and additional details in the music. I cannot even pinpoint where the bass is coming from now.

I should also note that I thought having the speakers further apart was the solution for a wider sound stage which is not the case. I now get a much wider sound stage by having the speakers closer together. I now have a continuous "Wall" of music across the soundstage.

While I now have depth, I am a bit inhibited given my room. If I had a deeper room then I could move the speakers further into the room and I might get some additional depth but it is by no means lacking.

Once we had things voiced the harsh brightness I was experiencing is a non-issue and Jim also confirmed this. I might have a sensitivity to higher frequencies but the system is certainly not creating a bright scenario. Bright recordings will of course come across as bright.

That is it for now. There are tons of things I left out but I wanted to give everyone a feel for how things turned out.

 

[RichTeer]

Very interesting read! Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

 

[DTB300]

While I did not take offense to his comments I was a bit surprised that I was that far off.

Learning about how an "excellent" setup sounds is an experience thing.

- The crossover frequency was best set at 35Hz versus the CLX setting of 30Hz
- Yes I said that right. The CLX setting boosted level by 6 to 8db and did not blend and crossover optimally with the panels.
- Setting the crossover at 35Hz and upping the Level some was the cure.

The CLX setting boosts the levels that much? Interesting. How much did you have to increase the level at your 35 setting?

I should note that my general preference was for a bit too much bass in my system which was destroying the details and tonality of most music. I can now appreciate a seamless bass and additional details in the music. I cannot even pinpoint where the bass is coming from now.

Too much bass is a very common setup for most. People love that feeling or sound of accentuated bass. But now you know what great integrated bass sounds like.

That is it for now.

Surprised you have torn yourself away from your rig now that you have it sounding better. Getting much sleep lately?

There are tons of things I left out but I wanted to give everyone a feel for how things turned out.

Excellent write up as it should help others try different things with their rooms and rig for better sound.

 

[User211]

Surely post of the day...

I think this post will indicate to the more experienced audiophiles that you "forget what you know". When Jim walked in, straight away he knew things were not as they should be. Sure sign of an experienced listener.

Glad you found it worthwhile... and those CLXs are singing as they should be.:music:

 

[Bernard]

Great post, and thanks for laying it out so it is very easy to read.

 

[gregadd]

Kill the back wave

Dipole users who have to place their speakers close to the rear wall really should consider some sort of back wave attenuation.
Soundlab makes the SALLIE $1K. Tube Traps will also do. The wall proximity becomes less of an issue
SALLIE
Reviewer Dick Olsher wrote concerning the SALLIE (Stereophile-Vol. 1, No. 11):

"Reflection off the wedges is quite minimal; placements right up against the back of the speaker are okay, and will not color the front wave.’ 'With Sallie ... the back wave really died.’
'The wedges are very effective in attenuating sound from 250 hz up.’
‘I verified to my satisfaction that Sallie performed as effectively as a pair of ASC Studio Traps behind each speaker in controlling the A-1’s back wave. I imagine that any dipole speaker would benefit from a date with Sallie. At a cost of around $1,000/pair Sallie is worth getting to know well"


Sallie is an acronym that stands for "Sonic Attenuator for Lower Levels of Interference Effects". The need for SALLIE is due to the inherent nature of dipole loudspeakers, wherein the energy from the front and rear of the panel are both radiated into the listening room. Under certain conditions, such as highly reflective room surfaces, acoustic anomalies, such as the comb-filter effect, can occur. Furthermore, back wave energy reflected off of nearby objects, including the wall behind the speaker, can cause undesirable interference effects, reducing the purity of the sound.

SALLIE eliminates back wave interference problems by absorbing the exact degree of backwave energy necessary to eliminate audible room effects and restore pristine reproduction. It has been found that a critical amount of backwave energy enhances the presence of the sound without causing negative effects. The amount of backwave energy released into the room is determined by the distance between the back of the speaker and SALLIE. For a given room this distance is easily determined empirically. Furthermore, SALLIE can save the high expense of acoustically treating the back wall that might compromise room decor. Sallie is hidden by the speaker and does not interfere with room aesthetics. Every dipole speaker and sound room can use SALLIE.


Gregadd

 

[Bernard]

Dipole users who have to place their speakers close to the rear wall really should consider some sort of back wave attenuation.
Soundlab makes the SALLIE $1K. Tube Traps will also do. The wall proximity becomes less of an issue
SALLIE.......

Thanks for the post on SALLIE; just what I need to buy once I have the funds - the $1K price is for a pair. I have been looking for a lower-cost alternative to Tube Traps.

 

[tonepub]

Good stuff! I was wondering how that went for you and glad to hear that it was a positive experience....

 

[David Matz]

CLX Positions:
- It was clear to Jim that the bulk of my issues were coming from the fact that my speakers were too far apart and not far enough from the front wall.
- We moved my speakers about 8" forward into the room and about 18" closer to each other.
- This snapped the sound staging into place.
- We toed in the speakers about 3" which corresponded to the flashlight on the inner panel recommendation.
- Jim measured the response curve of the tweeter and confirmed the inner 1/3rd is the smoothest
- With these position changes in place we now had a deeper soundstage, tone, body and overall sense of presence in the room for male and female vocals.

That is it for now. There are tons of things I left out but I wanted to give everyone a feel for how things turned out.

Mike,

Thank you very much for sharing, and for a great thread in general. I am happy for you that you can finally just enjoy the music!

How long did the positioning piece take? How instinctively did he know where to put the speakers or was there a lot of trial and error / moving back and forth involved?

Did you guys go down to the last 1/8 of an inch or just to the last inch?

If you can provide any more detail, it would be great.

Thanks

 

[Jim Smith]

How long did the positioning piece take? How instinctively did he know where to put the speakers or was there a lot of trial and error / moving back and forth involved?

Did you guys go down to the last 1/8 of an inch or just to the last inch?

Although I'm not Mike, if you don't mind, maybe I could answer briefly.

Final placement was within 1/16th of an inch from a point on the established centerline.

Regarding intuitive positioning, honestly speaking, in this case, it was mostly intuitive.

Having written the owner's manuals for Maggie T-1Ds, MG2As, & MG-1s, and having successfully worked with hundreds of planar speaker installations (including KLH 9's, Infinity SS-1s, various Acoustats, all Quads, early CLS's, etc.), I had a pretty good idea what needed doing.

It took the second half of a day, once the other issues that were foundational were addressed.

That's not to say that further positioning on a grid, in terms of inches or portions thereof, might not deliver slightly further refinement in soundstaging. That goes for just about any loudspeaker I can think of.

On a related note, I thought the Descent woofer system was exceptional. Even more so when I found out its price.

 

[RUR]

.... Soundlab makes the SALLIE $1K. Tube Traps will also do. The wall proximity becomes less of an issue...

Previous discussion (with photos) here: http://67.19.167.226/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=1141&highlight=sallie