New CLX Owner

[mgakathereaper]

A wealth of information in this area. Clearly I need to find someone local to start listening to some of these options. I probably need to start there with what I have already learned from folks on this forum. I may even have to work in some visits to some of you who own some of this equipment.

I am also struggling with my approach. Being completely new to this space should I "warp speed" to the high end or should I take a "road trip" and make some stops along the way so I can truly appreciate the high end when I get there.

My first stop could be using my dads old Philips 877 turntable and listening to some of his old albums. If this is the case, then all I would need to get started would be a Phono Pre-Amp. I realize this is probably the lowest branch on the tree but it will give me a baseline to move up from. Ultimately I will need to decide how I want to proceed.

Bernard - I have added "tools" to my list. I am familiar with Acoustic Sounds and they have a pretty good selection to choose from. It sounds like a heavy platter is a no brainer to improve sonics. Thx for confirming this. I don't get to Canada much but I have noted your recommendation. Thx.

tonepub - solid pre-amp recommendations as usual. I will research those on your list and find some reviews for reference. As you noted I need to actually hear these pieces to see what fits my tastes and I will do what I can to demo in my home or travel to hear them on others systems. I saw your review of the SG-2 and your support of this table in these forums. It looks like your review included the tri-planar mk III and the Lyra Skala. You also had a few Phono pre-amps and additional cartidges. Which combination did you like the best? Nice data points on finding the proper tubes as well as contacts. If I go down this road I will take you up on your references and probably have someone setup the system and educate me at the same time.

User211 - Thx for confirming my heavy platter inquiry and the additional reasons behind it. As you and others have noted I definitely need to hear some of this stuff to formulate my own opinion.

Thanks to all for the valuable input. This is all very illuminating and helpful.

 

[Bernard]

My first stop could be using my dads old Philips 877 turntable and listening to some of his old albums. If this is the case, then all I would need to get started would be a Phono Pre-Amp. I realize this is probably the lowest branch on the tree but it will give me a baseline to move up from. Ultimately I will need to decide how I want to proceed.

I was going to dismiss this option outright, but you may want to consider starting here as it will give you a feel for the "rituals" involved in playing a record, i.e. cleaning it, cleaning the stylus, cueueing it up, flipping the LP over etc. You may well find that you consider it a bother and don't really want to do it. It would be too bad to spend mega-bucks only to find that you don't really want to do all that stuff. As much as I prefer LPs over CDs, there are days when I am lazy, and it's so much easier to just throw a CD into the player.

Then again, if you start with your dad's old TT, the sound quality may well dissuade you from getting a good TT.

Of course, if you do buy a good TT etc and decide that this is not for you, there are a bunch of guys here who would no doubt be pleased to take them off your hands.

 

[tonepub]

Hey there:

I should be getting the SG-2 back shortly, if you want to stop by and hear a few different carts on the CLX's, just let me know. Happy to help.

If I have a little lead time, I can even try to get my hands on the Io for you as well, I'd love to review it anyway...

Best of luck on the hunt.

 

[User211]

If I have a little lead time, I can even try to get my hands on the Io for you as well, I'd love to review it anyway...

The IO is awesome for detail retrieval.

Another reason for a heavy platter is speed stability due to rotational inertia.

Other good carts? Well Madge is sounding pretty good via my Orpheus. The PC-1 will be worth a check, too. Oops... check means cheque, doesn't it? I mean "checking out".

Plus the usual suspects, Dynavector, Lyra etc. Too many to practically listen to. And that is half the problem!

 

[mgakathereaper]

Bernard - I am still debating the route I want to take on the TT front. I am thinking that I will need to get something fairly high-end if I want to improve upon a pure Krell EVO Cast system. I agree with your assessment that I might not hear the benefits of a lower range table. It all points back to getting some demoed on my system for me to figure out an entry point.

tonepub - I appreciate the offer and I will look into my travel schedule over the next few weeks to see if I am going to be on the west coast. This would certainly be an ideal way to hear some of the equipment since there are very few that actually have the CLX's at this point (not to mention a SG-2 and an IO). I would give you plenty of lead time. We can talk offline about this.

User211 - It seems the IO is getting some good support here. It is on the list. Thx for the additional cart options. Indeed the list is getting long...

 

[mgakathereaper]

OK. Now that things are breaking in I would like to comment on something that I was hoping was a "break in" attribute versus a system or environment anomaly.

I am specifically talking about some high frequency notes that quickly become hard to listen to at higher volumes. Based on my response curves posted earlier in this thread, it does not appear that I have a node at the higher frequencies. Based on the pictures posted you can see where I have positioned acoustic panels to assist with bass and reflections.

Let me be more specific and point out some songs that I definitely notice this with.

Metallica - And Justice For All - Blackened (Track 1); One (Track 4)
- At low to medium volumes (40-55 on my EVO 202 Preamp; goes upto 151) the guitar solos and rifts are tolerable but I want to turn it up some more to get more bass slam and mids. When I start getting above 55 and into the 60's and 70's the base and mids are great but then the highs become intolerable and quickly fatiguing. I don't typically crank it up all the time but l have had these songs up to 100 on the Preamp and it rattles my eyeballs and I can feel the air in the room moving. Awesome indeed but again the highs make this scenario almost impossible to listen to. The best way to explain it is that I want to reach for the treble knob or an equalizer to tone down the higher frequencies.

I also get this with some female vocals like Norah Jones, Sheryl Crow, etc so it is not limited to certain CD's or genres of music. Others have noted this as well so I don't think it is just my sensitive ears.

So the questions is, how do I address this issue?

1. More acoustic panels? My response curve seems descent so what am I missing? I have not done anything with the ceiling/wall corners or the ceiling so maybe I have more work to do here. If I move my head all the way back to the rear wall HF panels this assists the problem but then I loose the wide stage. I have read mention in the threads about a "bright" room but I would think my response curve would show this right?

2. Is this the product of my Krell amps and pre-amp? Cables? The only way for me to diagnose an equipment induced phenomenon is to try something else I suppose but I would hope I can treat the room to address this versus swapping out equipment.

Any thoughts or recommendations are welcome. I would like to tame this if I can. Don't get me wrong, at low to mid volumes they sound great but sometimes I want to open them up and right now it is fatiguing.

Thx in advance.

 

[Dougster]

OK.
I am specifically talking about some high frequency notes that quickly become hard to listen to at higher volumes.
Let me be more specific and point out some songs that I definitely notice this with.

Metallica - And Justice For All - Blackened (Track 1); One (Track 4)
- When I start getting above 55 and into the 60's and 70's the base and mids are great but then the highs become intolerable and quickly fatiguing. The best way to explain it is that I want to reach for the treble knob or an equalizer to tone down the higher frequencies.

.

Well, a bit surprising that you should have this problem. On the Spires the toe in is crucial to tonal balance and increasing this by measured steps may sort the problem provided you are getting this consistently on different recordings - if not perhaps the recording is at fault. The other possibility is the Kimber KCAG unless that is now out of the system.

 

[User211]

2. Is this the product of my Krell amps and pre-amp? Cables? The only way for me to diagnose an equipment induced phenomenon is to try something else I suppose but I would hope I can treat the room to address this versus swapping out equipment.

What you are describing is why I prefer tube gear... low listener fatigue is a strong plus point with a great tube amp. And an aggravating top end, especially with CD and SS amps, can be a real problem. But as you will now be aware, a lot will depend on the recording. Some will fair much better than others.

An analogue front end will help tame it, but that is no solution when CD is your main source. It's a difficult one that might be hard to solve. Don't blame it on the CLX, though. It isn't the problem.

Be aware that it is all a compromise. It's just that some compromises suit some people better than others.

Time to try that Jadis? That will definately cure the top end blues (or do much to alleviate it), I promise! But you may not like it overall for other reasons. Then again... The only way is to try different things.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Dougster - To your point on Toe In, I have experimented with configurations from 0 to 6 inches of toe-in in increments of .25 inches throughout the spectrum. I have not noticed a significant impact on the high ends I have described. I have found imaging to be best with about 3" of toe-in for my room. I indeed still have the KCAG between my Krell Standard and EVO 202 Pre-Amp. I have tested some single ended cables to eliminate the KCAG's from the mix and while the single ended cables help the higher frequencies somewhat, they just seem really flat compared to the KCAG's.

User211 - Tubes might be part of the answer for me but I don't want to jump ship on my Krell's just yet. I am still hoping that a combination of room treatments will assist with my perceived issue. Which Jadis amps would you recommend? As you mentioned, an analog front end might help as well especially if I throw in a tube Phono PreAmp like the Aesthetix IO. I certainly don't blame the CLX's. I am hoping it is just a room issue versus a SS issue. I will continue my quest to find a solution.

 

[mgakathereaper]

User211 - I noticed in your system that you use the Air Tight ATM-2's. Have you heard the Jadis on your system and are they that much better than your ATM-2's? Just curious why the Jadis are high on your list.

 

[mgakathereaper]

Anyone have experience with Martin Logan's and the McIntosh MC2301 tube amps? Worth putting on my list to demo?

 

[User211]

User211 - I noticed in your system that you use the Air Tight ATM-2's. Have you heard the Jadis on your system and are they that much better than your ATM-2's? Just curious why the Jadis are high on your list.

Check the following thread and read the "review" bit: http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7164

I sold the Air Tight as the Austria Analog 211s sounded much better, nice though the Air Tight was.

Some of the big ARCs might fit your bill very well - REF210 or 610Ts - to be honest I'd expect them to be better than the Jadis. The Jadis is very nice with the CLX, though.

 

[David Matz]

OK. Now that things are breaking in I would like to comment on something that I was hoping was a "break in" attribute versus a system or environment anomaly.

I am specifically talking about some high frequency notes that quickly become hard to listen to at higher volumes. Based on my response curves posted earlier in this thread, it does not appear that I have a node at the higher frequencies. Based on the pictures posted you can see where I have positioned acoustic panels to assist with bass and reflections.

Let me be more specific and point out some songs that I definitely notice this with.

Metallica - And Justice For All - Blackened (Track 1); One (Track 4)
- At low to medium volumes (40-55 on my EVO 202 Preamp; goes upto 151) the guitar solos and rifts are tolerable but I want to turn it up some more to get more bass slam and mids. When I start getting above 55 and into the 60's and 70's the base and mids are great but then the highs become intolerable and quickly fatiguing. I don't typically crank it up all the time but l have had these songs up to 100 on the Preamp and it rattles my eyeballs and I can feel the air in the room moving. Awesome indeed but again the highs make this scenario almost impossible to listen to. The best way to explain it is that I want to reach for the treble knob or an equalizer to tone down the higher frequencies.

I also get this with some female vocals like Norah Jones, Sheryl Crow, etc so it is not limited to certain CD's or genres of music. Others have noted this as well so I don't think it is just my sensitive ears.

So the questions is, how do I address this issue?

1. More acoustic panels? My response curve seems descent so what am I missing? I have not done anything with the ceiling/wall corners or the ceiling so maybe I have more work to do here. If I move my head all the way back to the rear wall HF panels this assists the problem but then I loose the wide stage. I have read mention in the threads about a "bright" room but I would think my response curve would show this right?

2. Is this the product of my Krell amps and pre-amp? Cables? The only way for me to diagnose an equipment induced phenomenon is to try something else I suppose but I would hope I can treat the room to address this versus swapping out equipment.

Any thoughts or recommendations are welcome. I would like to tame this if I can. Don't get me wrong, at low to mid volumes they sound great but sometimes I want to open them up and right now it is fatiguing.

Thx in advance.

Hi,

I agree that swapping equipment before taking care of the room is a bad decision. You may want to go the tubes route down the street, but why do it now? Also, another question in the future is where to stick the tubes. My thoughts on this is that if you like Metallica, it may be hard to get the bass that you like with a tube amp. You will also lose that iron grip the amp has over the panel, especially at high volumes. I just can't imagine hearing Metallica "rounded off" and "sugary". Maybe if you spend $40K on the tube amps, but I haven't experienced it.

The preamp may be a better place for tubes in your case for that "naturalness", but then again you would have to experience for yourself. I would hear these 3 preamps: BAT Rex , Act2, and the SS Ayre KXR in my system.

But as I said, this discussion is a bit premature. If you can make the drive to Chicago on 1/25, Burke will be having a get together in a well treated room with excellent equipment. You will definitely learn something new, especially if you bring your own music.

Also, post your question on the room in the room treatments section of this board. Guys like Ethan may not read this section of the site. Also, pictures will help.

Good Luck!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hey Justin,

There's lots of SS gear that doesn't cause one to run from the room at higher volumes. One example is my CJ preamp and Pass Labs amp.

Then again, I haven't heard the CLX but the JV / TAS review (and Jeff's review) clearly indicates that the speaker is uber revealing of any recording anamolies.

I believe this gentleman's issue with excessive brightness could lie elsewhere assuming the Krell gear is resonably neutral in this regard.

All I can say is that it's all about synergy and finding the right combination (amp, preamp, CDP, cables, etc.) is the fun and the challenge in optimizing a high end system's performance.

My system sounds quite lush in all aspects without a hint of hardness at any volume level.

One possible culprit could be vibration induced distortion.

Question for the lucky owner. What type of audio rack are you using and what are you doing for component vibration control?

At loud volumes, can you feel your components vibrating?

Not saying this is the sole source of your issue but IMHO, attenuating vibration can reap huge results in any hi end system, especially one at this level.

GG

PS: Just for kicks, try one of the Black Diamond Racing products or other equivalent under your CDP.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Thanks for the PM letting me know you have questions here.

Based on my response curves posted earlier in this thread, it does not appear that I have a node at the higher frequencies ... the highs become intolerable and quickly fatiguing.

Your photos show the front and back, but I can't see much of the sides. That looks like a lot of glass, yes? The room is also large, which means it has more reverb than small rooms.

1. More acoustic panels? My response curve seems descent so what am I missing?

Response curves like you posted show only half of the story. The other half is time-based, and that's what you need to see the decay times and ringing. I recommend the ETF or Room EQ Wizard programs, but you don't really need to measure anything. It's pretty clear to me you'll benefit from more mid/high frequency absorption. I also noticed the panels on the floor behind your seating. Those should be raised up so their bottoms are just below the top of the couch.

I have not done anything with the ceiling/wall corners or the ceiling so maybe I have more work to do here.

Yes, that can only help.

Is this the product of my Krell amps and pre-amp? Cables?

Not likely. All "gear" is more or less perfectly flat over the entire audible range. Versus rooms that vary by 30 dB or even more. Also, the graphs you posted may not have enough resolution to show the true response. You need at least 1/24 octave to see the true extent of peaks and nulls. Many graphs are averaged to 1/3 octave which hides most of the detail.

--Ethan

 

[User211]

Hey Justin,

There's lots of SS gear that doesn't cause one to run from the room at higher volumes. One example is my CJ preamp and Pass Labs amp.

Hi Gordon,

Here's what I think - a bit more comprehensively. Forgive my straightforwardness here and remember this is only what I think, based on my very own lugholes.

Yeah I agree there are some good solid state amps that don't sound harsh. But I have heard a Krell EVO sound EXACTLY that through a pair of Sophias at the London show in the link above. I also heard a Krell AV amp sound pretty harsh through through some Summits I comprehensively demo'd. I have also heard them in quite a few other systems and I have never liked them! Ever! I accept that plenty here do, though. And I'd rather see a Krell used than a hopelessly under-powered tube amp with Logans.

This man appears to be hearing exactly what I have heard from Krell kit, therefore I am offering a suggestion for a possible antidote, that's all.

If you can cure it with room treatments, definately try - it's the easy and cheapest option. My hunch is that you will not be able to do so, but I am no treatments guy... so many may regard what I say as being without substance. I agree that's a possibility.

I don't agree with David's bass assertions when using a tube amp - the man has two Descents which will more than take care of the bottom end, especially with the 65 odd Hz they kick in at. But David likes very powerful SS based amps, and if he likes them, that is all that counts.

I'd like to ask is anyone familiar with that recording? Is it *****, for want of a better word? Mr MGA (sorry, don't know your name) how widespread a problem is it with the recordings you have?

Also, there are plenty of tube amps that will drive Logans to extremely high levels without any stress whatsoever. Whilst I am not driving CLX's, my own amps do exactly that, and they mate totally seemlessly with the Descent.

And here is a Jadis JA-200 caution - whilst I thought is sounded great there are caveats - for one although rated at 160 Watts a channel, I am not sure it really has the grunt for Metallica at extremely loud volumes. I know this might sound nuts in the light of what I had said, but when I aksed the ML rep to turn it up when playing La Grange (which it did a superb job of, BTW), he didn't really do so... was he nervous it was going to break up, or was he just thinking it was loud enough already? Pass...

It is also not the most transient/fast/thumping sounding amp, and that is why it is so relaxing to listen to... even playing ZZ Top!

In short, I love (great) tube amps for their pleasing tone across wider varieties of music than most SS amps.

My first port of call would be a big ARC.

Rant terminated!

Good luck MGA, I'm sure we wish you all luck in sorting your issues out.

Justin

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Justin,

Your comments are based on your personal experiences, respectfully presented, and clearly don't fall into the "rant" category.

I've always fond your posts to be appropriate and insightful. I have no personal long term listening experience with Krell gear so I can't comment on its sonic signature. I know Chris (CAP) really likes the setup with his CLS's.

NOT to hijack the thread and NOT to open up the tube vs SS conversation but I did have a recent foray into the tube amp world.

Auditioned a VTL SS150 with my Summits. Absolutely glorius midrange but a bit too soft and unfocused, FOR ME, in the mid / lower bass area.

Obviously, many variables can account for that. Once I had the Pass Labs 250.5 in my system, I found that it was the right amp FOR ME given my personal preferences and the synergy with the rest of my system.

As an aside and to elaborate a bit on my previous post, component vibration attenuation can have quite a dramatic effect on the overall sound of a system. And the nice thing is that it's a relatively small investment that can yield audible improvements.

GG

PS: What the hell is a lughole?

 

[User211]

Hi Justin,PS: What the hell is a lughole?

UK slang for ears

 

[Dougster]

OK What's happening here?

CLX not to blame.
Krell? unlikely but did you listen pre purchase or buy on reputation? If the latter try Valve amps at home as per the recommendations of others or Moon W7/8 or monblocs sky's the limit and definitely non tiring anywhere in freq range and great bass for your musical taste - or other SS option as recommended elsewhere on the website.
Still a query re the recording - Justin asks if it is of excremental sound quality - I wonder too.
Good you have excluded toe in issue
Regards room treatment I don't see how this will sort your problem as you seem to have an issue re the nature not the quantity of high frequency. Thus Ethan's comments re flat frequency response of amps is also not relevant.
So try out some amps recommended on this site and compare is my advice.

Lastly the KCAG I'd definitely a lively and good interconnect but Kimber Select or Nordost Valhalla will give you more detail and a more musical natural presentation. Consistently in various systems the KCAG is more tiring than either of these especially the Kimber Select which would certainly move the sound in the direction you desire. These are also some of the qualities of Moon amps.
Why not listen to some acoustic music and compare to live performance!
Good luck you're raising some interesting problems!

 

[mgakathereaper]

First off let me thank everyone in this forum for your support and invaluable insight in assisting me with my challenges. Not only in this public forum but also via PM. Truly an awesome group giving sound advice based on real experience. For the record my first name is Mike until I get around to posting in the Members section.

As a blanket statement, I do not plan on bagging my Krell's unless I demo some tubes on my system and feel they sound better. My first plan of attack is to maximize my current setup and exhaust all room options (position, treatments, etc). I have ordered Jim Smiths book on room acoustics to self educate myself some more but ultimately I would consider getting someone to my house to really dial in the room and identify all the issues. Bob Hodas, Jim Smith, Ethan Winer, etc come to mind and I would leverage the experience to better understand acoustics in general. I am open to any other recommendations on this topic.

User211 - Nice link to additional tube information. Your recommendations sound warranted based on actual listening sessions. While subjective, I have no doubt that tubes sound better to you based on your experience. The fact that you have heard some EVO's on ML gear adds to your case. I need to hear some tubes in my system to form my opinion. I think we all agree here.

David Matz - As noted above, we are in agreement on sticking with my current equipment until I am 100% it is not the room. If it turns out it is not the room then I am thinking I will need to try a range of tubes or hybrids to figure out what sounds the best with my types of music. If I delve into a TT with a tube Phono Stage then this might be an option as well, at least for my analog. Good reference for the Chicago get together. I am still learning my way around this site so I have not seen all the other forums. Ideally I would love to get some more experienced users to listen to my system and confirm or negate what I am hearing. I may have to coordinate a regional gathering and if I am lucky get some tube amps to demo on my system as well. If I had a Uhaul I would consider packing up my CLX's and Krells and heading over to Chicago but it would be much easier to bring the listeners to my room. I will follow up on this in the gatherings forum. I will give 1/25 some serious consideration. I had PM'd Ethan to alert him of this thread and he responded quickly. I have pictures as well as diagrams of my room earlier in this thread.

Gordon Gray - I am certainly not running from the room and low to mid volumes sound outstanding. Maybe my definition of low and mid volume needs to be qualified. When my preamp is at a setting of 50 my Radio Shack decibel meter reads upper 70's to lower 80's depending on the CD. At these levels I have no problem with bearable highs. When I get to about 60 on my Preamp my meter reads upper 80's to lower 90's. You can extrapolate from there. I typically listen to them with the Preamp at 40-65 depending on the source. Now I noted in the TAS review the following quote "Oh, you can still "clip" the CLX's by overdriving them, although they won't distort with a crackling noise; instead, they brighten up and soften up when they are overstressed, losing dynamic impact and gaining upper-midrange brilliance. If dynamics are getting softer and rounder and the upper mids more piercing as the sound get louder, then it's time to turn the volume down". Is this possibly what I am experiencing? I don't think I am pushing them that hard to be honest. Vibration Induced Distortion is one area I have not investigated at length just yet. My rack is by Adona and it is supposed to have good vibration control but I will make a point to check if the components vibrate this weekend when I have a chance to do more testing. I will let you know what I find on this. Thx for pointing it out.

Ethan Winer - Thanks for the quick response to my PM. I would also like to thank you for a great product. Your Mondo package has certainly improved my base system and it looks like I have a little ways to go. It looks like you saw the photos of the front and back but I also have diagrams of the entire room earlier in the thread. I will make a point to get shots of all 4 walls this weekend. Not a ton of glass actually and all windows hove double honeycomb blinds which helps. My other pictures will help you to visualize this. Thanks for the tip on the time based decay. I am investigating your recommendation for software as well as XTZ which was mentioned in another thread. As mentioned earlier, I may ultimately get a pro at my house and fully analyze my room. I will talk to you offline on this topic. As for the panels behind the couch, when listening to 2-Channel I typically raise the two in the middle to the top of the couch and this assists with some of the high frequencies. I keep them down otherwise to make the wife happy. The art in the room may not look like much but my wife has a significant investment in them and I am not going to win that battle. Another valid point on the resolution. Again, I am investigating other software programs and will try to address your two points.

Dougster - I am optimistic that this is not a CLX or Krell issue but rather a room, vibration or cable issue that I just need to identify. Keep in mind this is only for louder volumes (~85+ decibels). Other tube and SS amps have been noted. While Metallica was my primary example, I get it will almost all other CD's as well such as Norah Jones, Linda Rondstadt, Sheryl Crow, Motley Crew, Acoustic Godsmack, Acoustic Nirvana, Acoustic Lenny Kravitz, Guns & Roses, The Eagles, etc... Metallica seems to be the worst as noted due to its inherent brightness and my tendency to want to crank them up. When I move my HF panels around it seems to improve my phenomenon. It also seems to helps when I throw a blanket of my 73" TV (imaging as well) so I am optimistic that I still have some opportunities to treat the room. Good recommendations on cables, this is another area that I need to experiment. I may even have to experiment with my Monocle XL speaker cables.

I should note that I am not at all disappointed with my system. For me this whole processes is enjoyable and a learning experience. The CLX's are simply awesome and I just need to continue tweaking to get the extra performance I am looking for (which may be subjective in itself). I would not really consider them problems, but rather challenges for my current environment.

For those of you that sent me PM's, I will get back with you tomorrow as I need to sign off for the night.