New CLX Owner

[mgakathereaper]

I will attempt to answer most of the comments since my last post. Thanks Jim for jumping in on some topics.

RichTeer -
I have no problems sharing my experiences and hopefully it will help some others who are just getting started or have neglected the basics.

DTB300 -
I knew I was lacking the experience and thus my investment in Jim. Knowing what the baseline is certainly helps in understanding better sound. I have learned a ton and would like to hear some other systems now to see how I compare.

Yes. The CLX setting boosted levels by 6-8db over the 35hz setting. I had originally had my Level setting at 4 and with the crossover at 35Hz we ended up at 5.5 on the Level dial. Keep in mind that my bass was too strong to begin with that Jim quickly determined.

Yes. I was biased toward more bass to get that thump in the chest which is not always the best thing. Before the changes it was easy to pinpoint where the subs were located. Once we voiced the room they disappear and are seamless. I am re-learning tracks that I used to listen to and now realize the added bass was robbing a lot of other details.

Indeed. I have had some pretty late nights getting lost in music. I have also been inspired to expand my song selections and genre. Jim has a great list of music in his book that I have ordered from various sources.

Thanks. I am hoping others will try some of these items to see if they help their system.

User211 -
Thanks. Like most things, you have to get the fundamentals correct to take things to the next level. While I am certainly no expert I definitely understand my specific system much better and how the changes impacted the sound.

Bernard -
Thanks. It may not be eloquent but it captures most of the factual items that others can use.

gregadd -
The SALLIE sounds interesting. This might be something for me to try over my current RealTrap Mini-Traps behind the speakers. However, I am in no hurry to change my system at this point in time. I would suspect I would get a similar impact as I am getting now.

tonepub -
Thanks. It was more that worth it to get Jim on site. If my travel takes me to the West coast I would be interested in hearing your setup now that I have a good reference point.

David Matz -
Thanks. It is definitely more enjoyable to know I have the system dialed in and not having to worry if I am missing out on something due to setup.

I think Jim answered your other questions. Experience of course ruled in this case and Jim knew instinctively where these things had to go. I would have spent days making grids and comparing positions but Jim expedited all that effort for me. Speakers are pretty much identical in the X,Y and Z space including toe-in and tilt.

Jim Smith -
Thanks for airing some of the questions and joining the forum.

RUR -
Thanks for the additional insight on the SALLIE tweak.

I think that covers it. My system seems to sound a little better each day which could be the Synergistic PowerCell 10SE breaking in or just some general settling after the larger changes earlier this week. It could be mental as well I suppose...

Thanks again to all those here that have helped me along my journey thus far. I think I have come pretty far the past 3-4 months thanks to folks on the forum and of course Jim Smith. I will have to schedule a regional get together to get others perspective on my system.

 

[David Matz]

Although I'm not Mike, if you don't mind, maybe I could answer briefly.

Final placement was within 1/16th of an inch from a point on the established centerline.

Regarding intuitive positioning, honestly speaking, in this case, it was mostly intuitive.

Having written the owner's manuals for Maggie T-1Ds, MG2As, & MG-1s, and having successfully worked with hundreds of planar speaker installations (including KLH 9's, Infinity SS-1s, various Acoustats, all Quads, early CLS's, etc.), I had a pretty good idea what needed doing.

It took the second half of a day, once the other issues that were foundational were addressed.

That's not to say that further positioning on a grid, in terms of inches or portions thereof, might not deliver slightly further refinement in soundstaging. That goes for just about any loudspeaker I can think of.

On a related note, I thought the Descent woofer system was exceptional. Even more so when I found out it's price.

Thanks, Jim. Is this setup process documented in detail, in your book or elsewhere?

Also, I find your comments about using the Depth extremely interesting. Many guys would rather take less bass than integrate a sub and hear different components. For example, Jonathan Valin did not use a sub for his Magico minis or for the CLX (yet) because he was fearful of losing the seamlessness of the speakers. How much, if anything, was lost by hooking up the Depth? Thanks.

 

[mgakathereaper]

David Matz - I don't want to answer for Jim but the detailed process is indeed outlined in his book in respects to setting up a grid, a center point, toe in, common X and Y ratios, etc.

Also note that I have a pair of Descent i's in my setup and not the Depth as you commented on. I also have the CLX crossovers in the subs which we ultimately ended up not using in my setup but they may work in someone else's environment.

My personal opinion is that you need the subs with the CLX's. They just add more body and overall presence to the music. I suppose it depends on what you listen to but I honestly think the subs complete the system in all types of music. I have done a fair amount of listening with and without the subs and I prefer the subs in every case.

I am sure Jim has thoughts on this as well but I will let him speak for himself.

 

[Jim Smith]

Thanks, Jim. Is this setup process documented in detail, in your book or elsewhere?

Specifically, pages 81-114.

Also, I find your comments about using the Depth extremely interesting. Many guys would rather take less bass than integrate a sub and hear different components. For example, Jonathan Valin did not use a sub for his Magico minis or for the CLX (yet) because he was fearful of losing the seamlessness of the speakers. How much, if anything, was lost by hooking up the Depth? Thanks.

Descent. I've never worked with the Depth.

 

[David Matz]

Specifically, pages 81-114.



Descent. I've never worked with the Depth.

Sorry, I did mean Descent. So is anything lost or is the integration pretty much seamless or can you (even slightly) hear the different components? Thanks

 

[Jim Smith]

Once we found the right crossover point and bass level, it was fairly straightforward to achieve a relatively seamless blend.

BTW - The "CLX" setting that we didn't use may very well work in other settings. But Mike's panels, due to his room geometry, had a shallow trough at about 55-60 Hz, and we were able to integrate the Descent more seamlessly at the 35 Hz indicated frequency.

I have no idea what the Descent crossover slope is. At the 30 Hz "CLX"' setting, there was just a touch of one note bass in his room. It drew a tad too much attention to itself, abetted no doubt by the measured +8 dB more output in the "CLX" setting.

Properly set-up, great subs (never one - either two or none) shouldn't draw attention to themselves, but should include necessary spatial cues even when it's just a simple instrument that's playing.

Pages 35-44 ...

 

[DTB300]

Jim...Thanks for stopping by the forum for more details about your work at the OP home and of course information about your book and how it was used in this instance.

 

[David Matz]

Properly set-up, great subs (never one - either two or none) shouldn't draw attention to themselves, but should include necessary spatial cues even when it's just a simple instrument that's playing.

Pages 35-44 ...

Jim, thanks. Why 2 vs. 1 subs?

Also, having worked with the CLX, what is the minimum room size you would recommend for this speaker?

I really appreciate you sharing your expertise.

 

[Jim Smith]

Jim, thanks. Why 2 vs. 1 subs?

I cover this in detail in the manual. Our spatial cues come in part from low frequencies. They arrive at the microphones at slightly different times.

With one sub, this info is canceled (phase cancellation). With two (in stereo, not two mono subs), it is preserved. Of course, this is primarily of use for acoustic recordings, but even many studio recordings benefit.

In the manual, I write about a 30 I.P.S. analog recording I made for a group in the 80s, and which was going to be broadcast on NPR. This was a handbell choir in a cathedral. No actual low fundamental frequencies.

When I played it back for some audiophiles who believed one sub was good enough, they were shocked to hear the soundstage collapse when one carefully level matched sub was used (the big Entec, the best at that time), versus no subs. The speakers were Quad 63s, on special stands. Of course two carefully level matched Entecs seemed to increase the palpability of the stage and the instruments, even though you couldn't hear them per se.

I would never sell my clients just one sub. Two lesser subs will be better than one great one. Buy two lesser subs if you must have subs, or wait until you can afford the two better ones.

I should say that the CLX 30 Hz crossover ameliorates this phenomenon, due to the long wavelengths at 30 Hz, but it still makes a difference, partly because there is still significant information up to 100 Hz or so, although down in amplitude.

Also, having worked with the CLX, what is the minimum room size you would recommend for this speaker?

That probably depends on whether or not it's a dedicated room and you can do anything with it.

Mike's room is effectively much larger than you might think, because the two sides are open to other rooms. And he has a high sloped ceiling.

In general, perhaps a room that is at least 15' wide and 16' deep, if not more.

 

[houstonshark]

Where is the best place to buy Jim's book?

What did it cost for the consultation and tune of your system by Jim?

 

[mgakathereaper]

houstonshark - I am not sure of the rules and such of posting website links here so I will take the conservative road and recommend you do a google search for "Get Better Sound" and it will lead you to the website Jim has for his book. It is hard copy only at this point so you will need to allow a couple days for delivery.

On the topic of consultation costs, I would recommend you call Jim Smith directly to work out these details. He is located in Atlanta, GA. I would imagine they will be different for each system depending on what you want him to do. Jim's contact info is available on the above website.

For me I would not think twice about Jim's costs. They are more than fair in my opinion. In my case I realized benefits well beyond the cost of his services.

 

[David Matz]

Where is the best place to buy Jim's book?

What did it cost for the consultation and tune of your system by Jim?

The Ayre site has a link to it from their What's new section.

Heck, it's called Get Better Sound. If you put the 3 words together and add a .com, you should get there!

 

[houstonshark]

Perfect. I just ordered the book.

 

[RichTeer]

I would never sell my clients just one sub. Two lesser subs will be better than one great one. Buy two lesser subs if you must have subs, or wait until you can afford the two better ones.

I'm no acoustician, but the twin-subs or none philosophy seems sound (no pun intended, honest!) to me. FWIW, JL Labs has the same philosophy.

 

[houstonshark]

I agree. The majority of our systems are sold with 2 subs where space and wife allow!

 

[mgakathereaper]

While I have been enjoying my system I have tried an additional tweak. I had been demoing some Black Diamond Racing products for some isolation improvements and while they are very good I think I found an even better option based on a recommendation.

I recently received some Apex Footers from Grand Prix Audio and I am liking the results. I have 4 of them under each CLX (Apex Footer is Silicon Nitride ball and threaded knuckle), 3 of them under my Krell EVO 505 SACD and 3 of them under my Krell EVO 202. I noticed the biggest improvements when I installed them under my speakers and then EVO 505. The EVO 202 added some benefits but not as much as the other 2 areas.

In general I have noted more clarity, detail and overall richness in sound. The bass response has expanded as well which required me to adjust my sub levels accordingly. I have compared with no feet at all, rubber feet, spiked feet, BCR cones and Jumbo Pucks. I like the Grand Prix Audio results the best in my system thus far.

The price point of the Grand Prix Audio products is much greater than the Black Diamond Racing products so it is not quite apples to apples but I definitely prefer the sound of the GPA over the BDR.

I may investigate the GPA shelving products down the road but I may order some additional Apex Footers in the short term for my other components.

If you have the opportunity to put the GPA footers in your system then give them a try. You may like what you hear.

 

[tonepub]

There's a link on our front page as well....

 

[David Matz]

I recently received some Apex Footers from Grand Prix Audio and I am liking the results. I have 4 of them under each CLX (Apex Footer is Silicon Nitride ball and threaded knuckle), 3 of them under my Krell EVO 505 SACD and 3 of them under my Krell EVO 202. I noticed the biggest improvements when I installed them under my speakers and then EVO 505. The EVO 202 added some benefits but not as much as the other 2 areas.

In general I have noted more clarity, detail and overall richness in sound. The bass response has expanded as well which required me to adjust my sub levels accordingly. I have compared with no feet at all, rubber feet, spiked feet, BCR cones and Jumbo Pucks. I like the Grand Prix Audio results the best in my system thus far.

Mike,

Do you by chance own the Grand Prix rack also?

 

[mgakathereaper]

I currently do not own the rack and shelving from GPA but I would certainly consider it. Putting the Apex Footers under my current rack and components will get me much of the benefits but moving to the rack would be ideal. Besides looking great, the isolation is supposed to be phenomenal.

You can find some GPA stuff occasionally at online auctions but if buying new you will need to contact GPA for a list of local dealers. It seems GPA has a tight distribution network so following the proper protocol on the website is necessary. In my experience this is a very smooth process.

 

[Jim Smith]

Mike,

Do you by chance own the Grand Prix rack also?

Although Mike doesn't own the GPA Monaco rack at this time, I've owned mine for many years.

It's the only rack I've used that performs at or beyond component level, meaning that it very often is capable of a much larger improvement than changing out an amplifier or preamp, and almost always much more than cables.

Most racks can make some difference in the realm of tuning, but IME, only the GPA rack seems to excel at isolation.

I always demo'd with my personal (or a loaner) GPA rack at shows.

I don't have a financial interest in GPA, other than desiring to see (GPA owner) Alvin Lloyd do well.

FWIW - he owns Martin-Logans...