ML Production moving

[Scumurculum]

JMAUSUP

Your comment reeked of euro (ie western) arrogance.

You basically said that the Chinese (well asians in general) cant design anything, cant write software and are poor manufacturers.

A pretty offensive and untrue generalisation

Yes the pollution over there is really bad, but it doesn’t help that most western countries (especially Europe) are offloading their polluting industries to China.

Oh and by the way I was in LA for about a week recently, It was not cloudy but didn’t see the sky once, so I think you need to look at your own back yard first.

Now with respect to ML moving manufacturing to Canada, if it helps their bottom line and retains manufacturing quality I see no problem with it.

Yes I feel sorry for those in Kansas that are losing their job, however Canadians are just as entitled to a job as Americans.

 

[Bernard]

Wait a minute, I know for a fact that Bernard, Justin, Jeff, Rich, Dave, et al, can't be no fun at all, they make me laugh and cry on a regular basis here at MLOC, maybe IrishTom is actually one of our wives sent in here to belittle us

You feel belittled ? Maybe it's time to take a little blue pill ?

You know for many people it is true. Porcshe, Ferrari, Viper, Saab, McIntosh, ClearAudio, Oppo, BAT, Spectral, Burmeister, yeah Martin Logan and the list goes on and on. At least some of the People who own products from these companies do take an emotional interest in both the product and the company......I'm just saying.

Yeah, when I heard that ARC had been sold. I shuddered. But so far they seem to be staying the course.

 

[cyclone]

I have both ARC and ML products what I like most about owning them is that if I have a question or concern on one of their products I can actually talk to someone who knows and has experience with them (usually Leonard or Jim respectively) Also if I need something repaired I know they are there to do it just like they have been for many, many years.
Now will this continue? As far as ML goes things seem to be changing fast and I wouldn't doubt that in the not so far future that Lawrence will be fazed out all together. Where that would leave the customer service I have grown to appreciate is my concern.

 

[Rich]

I don't hang out here;

Hmmm? Sixty-eight posts in the past year would suggest otherwise.

this site is no fun at all.

And yet, you continue to come back and post.

You seem to think that an interest in using a device means one has an emotional interest in the company that makes it and that's not true.

No, not necessarily. But I do believe that the majority of the people posting on this forum (which happens to be dedicated to the brand) do have an emotional connection to Martin Logan. You are obviously an exception, not surprisingly.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I don't hang out here; this site is no fun at all. I looked in here because a friend told me ML production was leaving the country and I found that of interest. You seem to think that an interest in using a device means one has an emotional interest in the company that makes it and that's not true.

I recently started participating in the "Ultra High End Audio" website as a result of some promo material I received at the 09 RMAF.

After about a month or so, I decided that this site "was no fun". Read, the threads and posts were of little interest to me.

I just stopped posting recognizing that others on that site found the site to be fun and interesting.

I didn't feel it was appropriate for me the "judge" those individuals / topics discussed and make negative comments.

If you don't like this site, fine. But that's no justification for you to vent your personal feelings and insult those who do find this site fun, entertaining, and interesting.

Get a life.

GG

 

[Gordon]

I'd like to wish ML well in this new move. I don't like it, and have doubts about it. Was I harsh earlier? Indeed I was and still feel the same way.

I have a lot of respect for a person with the guts and vision to strike out on their own and be the owner. While they have the vision, guts and money to try, the employees are vital to the success of any company. Where would ML be today if the folks getting riffed after 25 years didn't stick around and give as much as the owner did but in different ways?

I could not be an owner of a business as some of you are. It takes a ruthlessness that I just don't have. Reading Joe's posts drove it home to me. So twelve jobs left to Canada......or words to that effect. What if somebody came up to Joe and told him and his partners we can make or produce what you can for less, it's only a couple jobs? Simplified, perhaps. I imagine an owner will go to any extreme to protect his investment of time and money. I saw it in my father after PizzaHut, Dominoes and PaPaJohn moved in and our family owned business folded.

I'll not post in this thread again. There is an emotional attachment for me despite what another member posted.

Gordon

 

[Rich]

JMAUSUP

Your comment reeked of euro (ie western) arrogance.

You basically said that the Chinese (well asians in general) cant design anything, cant write software and are poor manufacturers.

A pretty offensive and untrue generalisation

I think you are ignoring the facts on the ground and taking offense for the sake of taking offense. Joe made some good points, and many who have experience dealing with the Chinese directly have echoed similar thoughts. I have two friends who deal with manufacturing in China and have heard similar horror stories from both of them. Much like the TAS story Bernard referred to. And his point about the environmental damage not being taken into account in their manufacturing costs yet is dead-on.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think you are ignoring the facts on the ground and taking offense for the sake of taking offense.

really Rich you are the one who is usually guilty of this.

 

[Sambob2]

So...uhhh, I heard Martin Logan was moving production up north...

 

[Scumurculum]

Rich

This is my last comment on this issue as I don’t want to hijack this thread any longer, so I beg Tom's indulgence one last time.

Firstly, you clearly ignored the second half of my last comment with respect to environmental impacts, so I will leave it that.

Now on the other point.

What if I made a generalisation like this:

" Americans are arrogant, gun obsessed and are completely ignorant of the outside world."

You and I both know that this is not true

But if all a non American had to go on was Fox News or some of the media it is understandable why some foreigners might think like that.

So basically what I am saying is that it is easy (and lazy) to make generalisations about other cultures based on limited examples as usually it is not true or does not tell the whole story.

By the way I can tell you a number of companies making fine high quality audio gear in China:

Shanling
Primaluna
Cayin
consonance
Quad: moved manufacturing from England to China a few years ago and build quality has increased dramatically

 

[Rich]

What if I made a generalisation like this:

"Americans are arrogant, gun obsessed and are completely ignorant of the outside world."

You and I both know that this is not true

Ummm . . . well . . . actually, I would have to agree with that quoted statement, generally speaking. No, it doesn't describe every American. But on a general level, I can't say it is that inaccurate. By and large, Americans do tend to be pretty arrogant, pretty ignorant of world affairs, and just a little too obsessed with their firearms. I know I fit into at least two of those categories. (I am pretty knowledgeable on world affairs.)

So basically what I am saying is that it is easy (and lazy) to make generalisations about other cultures based on limited examples as usually it is not true or does not tell the whole story.

I agree with that statement, and I think if you would have worded your original post like that instead of how you did, which was really kind of offensive in itself, we all would have gotten your point much better.

 

[Scumurculum]

Fair enough Rich but I stand by what I said before and how I said it

 

[Rvega003]

Too many people are focusing on the specifics of moving a portion of production over the border and not on the larger troubling trend. If you don't think ShoreView is moving to cheapen the brand then you blind or naive. I may own a pair of Vantage's, but I will be the first to acknowledge that its predecessor the Odyssey was a better built and in many cases, an acoustically superior speaker given the right electronics. The first Vistas where U.S. built, and noticeably superior to there later Chinese counterparts. The anger towards this move is not a referendum on Canadian labor (which is arguably better than U.S. labor; at the very least its better educated and healthier, living longer and taking fewer sick days; I would kill for your health plan) it's a loyal fan base taking issue with a company taking a remarkable well-established home grown brand and turning them into mass market muck. Maybe Martin Logan will buck the trend and still build a fine product while catering to a larger audience, but I say look at Mirage, Infinity, and Mark Levinson (I'm sorry but I think Harman International butchered both brands).

 

[FISH_MAN]

Perhaps we own the last true Logans in the end the proof is in the pudding it's not who made them but what they are made of time will tell I just hope it has a good story to tell.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I could not agree more with Rvega. My Vantages have not held up nearly as well as my Aerius i's have. The thin veneer on the cabinets are ultra prone to damage. I have noticed little chips here and there on the cabinets and it drives me bonkers considering they are 5 thousand Dollar plus Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[FISH_MAN]

just because you have the money to buy a special company does not mean you have the sense to run it the write way, that can not be bought you either have it or you don't.

 

[JMAUSGP]

JMAUSUP

Your comment reeked of euro (ie western) arrogance.

You say that, like that is a bad thing, I am sorry you feel that way, that was not my intention but I would argue that my argument was not an untrue generalization.

Interesting Scumurculum, I think you have quite an imagination.

I merely pointed out that my experience with Chinese clone manufacturing has universally been a bad experience, in fact two of my experiences with Chinese clone products nearly cost me my life. Once on a clone Chinese motor scooter that broke in half while I was riding it and was due to negligent design and manufacture and the second time was on a brand new 900cc Triumph Motorcycle with Chinese clone shock absorbers which failed due to a manufacturing flaw. The shock was recalled by Triumph and replaced with a European replacement shock, unfortunately the shock on my bike failed while I was riding the bike 3 months before the recall happened. I still have not gotten the brown stain off of my motorcycle seat.

As for design, I merely pointed out that cloning a device is dangerous when the design and engineering spec is not properly understood. But if you read things like what Bernard referred too, it may be that they do understand but figure they can skimp and make more money, without worrying about the consequences. That thought bothers me more than just incompetence.

As for software and specifically Chinese software design and development, you must be aware of something I am not. Having spent all of my adult life in the software industry, I am not aware of a large original Chinese software industry. I do admit to referring to a lack of success by Japan in creating a new computer programming language like the 5th and 6th Gen projects, but hey it was the only way I could think of to make a Chinese alphabet joke.

I am not aware of a successful Chinese original software industry. Maybe you can enlighten us on this large scale Chinese software industry, that no one I know has ever heard of. However, I do know that when we expanded our software into the APAC market we had immediate and large scale hacking, copying and resale fraud of our software. Chinese cloning is what it is called, but hey that was our fault, we should have made our system hack proof from the start. And BTW you obviously have never tried to prosecute a Chinese company for copying and reselling software illegally.

I am sure the Europeans are forcing this on the Chinese and that is terrible. You are kidding right.

Okay, this is hard to understand and irrelevant. No one has made pollution and issue except you. You seem overly sensitive to it in fact. The discussion actually revolved around the fact that up until now Chinese manufacturing has not factored in the cost of pollution, it is a big economic advantage and not just an opinion and the Chinese government has been hiding the problem and cost of pollution for years but now the problem has grown so big that even the Chinese government can't hide it any more. Karma is a bitch.

As for spending a week in LA, I am not sure but you may have set a record. I am not sure anyone has ever spent a whole week in Downtown LA without dying of boredom first.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Ummm . . . well . . . actually, I would have to agree with that quoted statement, generally speaking. No, it doesn't describe every American. But on a general level, I can't say it is that inaccurate. By and large, Americans do tend to be pretty arrogant, pretty ignorant of world affairs, and just a little too obsessed with their firearms. I know I fit into at least two of those categories. (I am pretty knowledgeable on world affairs.)



I agree with that statement, and I think if you would have worded your original post like that instead of how you did, which was really kind of offensive in itself, we all would have gotten your point much better.

Originally Posted by Scumurculum
What if I made a generalisation like this:

"Americans are arrogant, gun obsessed and are completely ignorant of the outside world."

Bad example Scumurculum, unfortunately as Rich stated in general that generalization is right on.

Sometimes generalizations are what they are. Italians are the worlds best original designers, Germans, the best engineers, Americans are very good at inventing things, Japanese are great at re-engineering, the English.....the best at being Royal....okay that was a stretch. But the rest of that stuff is straight from a recent study of the Human species and besides it was on the Discovery channel, so it must be true.

 

[Rich]

Too many people are focusing on the specifics of moving a portion of production over the border and not on the larger troubling trend. If you don't think ShoreView is moving to cheapen the brand then you blind or naive.

Great post. This is my concern as well.

Think about this: for the past several years, what has Martin Logan's R&D department been working on? The Motion series, the Encore and Preface ATF's, the Feature Center Channel, Dynamo subwoofers, and the Helos in-ceiling speakers. Most of these are completely new speakers designed from the ground up. Lots of R&D effort. And all lower end home theater oriented products.

What about the high end? They spent a lot of time developing the CLX three to four years ago and it introduced some innovative technology. But the Summit X is basically just a Summit with the CLX crossover. The Spire is basically the same but with one less woofer. Not that much R&D effort was spent creating these products.

They have spent a much larger amount of their R&D budget the last couple of years producing products for the lower end home theater market, most of which are manufactured in China. The higher end seems to be stagnant for the moment. Have they beefed up their R&D staff now that they are designing so many new products for multiple price points? Or are they getting spread thin? Are they favoring the low end over the high end? I think these are all relevant questions.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Great post. This is my concern as well.

Think about this: for the past several years, what has Martin Logan's R&D department been working on? The Motion series, the Encore and Preface ATF's, the Feature Center Channel, Dynamo subwoofers, and the Helos in-ceiling speakers. Most of these are completely new speakers designed from the ground up. Lots of R&D effort. And all lower end home theater oriented products.

What about the high end? They spent a lot of time developing the CLX three to four years ago and it introduced some innovative technology. But the Summit X is basically just a Summit with the CLX crossover. The Spire is basically the same but with one less woofer. Not that much R&D effort was spent creating these products.

They have spent a much larger amount of their R&D budget the last couple of years producing products for the lower end home theater market, most of which are manufactured in China. The higher end seems to be stagnant for the moment. Have they beefed up their R&D staff now that they are designing so many new products for multiple price points? Or are they getting spread thin? Are they favoring the low end over the high end? I think these are all relevant questions.

I have to agree, the R&D expenditures are the best indicator of where things are going. More so than manufacturing jobs.

At my company we spend between 17 and 30 percent of our annual revenues on R&D. It shows the way for everything we do and in my experience it is a tell for just about any company.