ML Production moving

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

I believe the Club consensus is that the "made in the heartland, etc." is true BS and Corporate, assuming they want "truth in advertising" and not a marketing slogan, should abandon ASAP.

Absent this action, their credibility amongst the supporters that allowed ML to be where it is today, will be lost.

GG

 

[Rvega003]

Mark, as a current owner of Vantages and someone who consistently fought the battle for proper equipment/ placement on a showroom floor (Sound Advice) I know the pain. If you haven't visited a local Mag location, stay away for your own sanity. Its not only a lack of amplification, but a lack of placement (both distance and tow in), wiring, and even a proper demo. The Vanatges sit in corners ignored like ugly step children, babysat by a bunch of mindless tweens. If a mag guy is reading this I don't care, your staff sucks and should stick to the dvd isles. I asked one of the guys about ground hum and a ground isolation transformer and he gave me a blank stare. They don't know the difference between a stator and a Stanton cartridge. I know there compensation is sub par, but they still get a 70% discount on Logan (that is a verified fact), so do some online research and take a modest amount of pride in your work.

 

[Rich]

Hello,
I was one of the first to reply on this subject. And while I have not been a prolific poster here, I have been here a while.

I was the first to speculate that is was Paradigm's Plant where ESL Production was moving to. This was only after reading the City in Canada where they were moving to. I am not writing this to pat myself on my back so much as respond to the sentiment that not many Members on this thread have been here a while.

Hey Mark,

I appreciate your posts and noticed you were one of the first to reply on the subject with some good insights. I guess my comment about not many older members posting has been taken a little differently than I intended. I didn't mean to imply that no long-time forum members had posted or that the thread consisted entirely of newer members. I really was just surprised that this news didn't draw more conversation from a greater variety of posters than it did.

And it seemed to me, and still seems to me, that many of the members of the forum that have been on here for years, and posted on so many different topics of discussion, were utterly absent from this thread. I wasn't meaning to chastise anyone for not posting so much as I was just expressing my surprise that this topic didn't generate more discussion from all members and especially many members that have been active on the forum for years. For instance, of the many members that attended our first get together a few years ago and toured the factory with me, I think the only one that has responded to this topic was Dave, and that was more to correct me on a point than to really discuss the production move. It just bewilders me that on a forum dedicated to these speakers, that the decision to move production out of the country, away from the place where they have been hand-made for thirty years, does not garner more discussion. It completely bewilders me.

 

[FISH_MAN]

It is nice that you have a state of the art facility to move production to (albeit one that has heretofore been geared toward cone/box speaker production rather than ESLs). But that still doesn't account for the loss of experience of the people that have been hand-producing these speakers for many years. I don't see how you can abruptly shift production to another country, train new people how to make the ESL panels, and still maintain the quality level we have come to expect. Time will tell soon enough whether I am right or wrong on that point. But I wish you all luck with the transition.

do you really think that other factory workers in Canada cannot learn how to build ESL panels??? I highly doubt it is as complex as you may think a few members hear have rebuilt their own esl panels with mostly stuff they got from the hardware storeperhaps if (and I stress if)they became not available JonFo could start his own line of electro-stats ???

 

[Gordon]

I've been a ML owner for only two years. I heard and saw them many years ago and had always dreamed of owning them. The American made title has always had an appeal to me, especially when spending discretionary income.

Disappointment in the company would be an understatement to me. I don't like the move and putting people out of a job.

Rich, I think the reason this topic is fairly dead is most Americans have become desensitized to the loss of jobs in this country. It has been going on for so long, it's expected, and when it happens, we shrug our shoulders and accept it.

Martin Logan, I will not accept it any longer! I refuse to make any new purchases of your gear. I will not recommend nor endorse your product. Further, I will visit your site today and request that my "club" membership be closed. Finally, I will return the CD you sent me.

Justin, I realize your the conduit to this club and need to remain upbeat. How can anyone remain upbeat after putting twelve families out on the street?

Gordon

 

[robertawillisjr]

As soon as the sale of ML became public, I was expecting something like this. I am relieved that the new owners seem to still have enough regard for the product to move manufacturing to Canada and a plant that has an excellent reputation.

It should also be noted, that for business concerns this move while technically a move to a foreign country really isn't (IMHO). The US and Canada are really very close business partners. So close that many products are manufacured in both countries seamlessly.

 

[Mantana]

As soon as the sale of ML became public, I was expecting something like this. I am relieved that the new owners seem to still have enough regard for the product to move manufacturing to Canada and a plant that has an excellent reputation.

It should also be noted, that for business concerns this move while technically a move to a foreign country really isn't (IMHO). The US and Canada are really very close business partners. So close that many products are manufacured in both countries seamlessly.

I agree...Canadians make great speakers and electronics.
Thankfully, warranty work will still be performed in Kansas,
but i'm not as negative on this move as most. It's unfortunate
a few US jobs will be lost, but if this is a cost cutting measure,
it doesn't mean quality will also be sacrificed. I'm all for
saving and creating US jobs, but if another country can
produce a product with the same quality and a lower cost,
then they will get the work. We're not talking about third world
slave labor here. If it didn't make economic sense, they
wouldn't move production to Canada.

I know this isn't a very good analogy, but i recall in
the 80's when GM & Ford were putting out crappy cars
and the "buy America" rant began. Sorry, subsidizing
poor workmanship is not my idea of enhancing quality.
The only reason they improved their quality was
because of foreign competition. I'm not saying ML has
poor quality...my Spires were flawless...i'm just saying
it's a global economy. We need to be competitive to save
and create jobs. Obviously, it didn't make sense to
keep production in Kansas even with the record profits.
Any business that acquires a firm is going to
streamline production and eliminate inefficiencies...
that's inevitable.

I do feel for those long term employees, though.
It sucks to have your livelihood pulled out from
underneath you, particularly in this economy. Maybe
the anger should be directed against the original
owners...they must have known this would happen
when they sold out.

 

[Double D]

Woooo boy.. Talk about both sides of the fence on this one..

I still gotta say, that considering what "might have been" ie: shipping the whole deal overseas lock, stock and mylar.. this is a far gentler and perhaps even better solution.

While I'm always skeptical of those in marketing.. after all, they are PAID to put a positive spin on even a negative event. Justin is correct. The Paradigm facility is second to none, they have a huge investment in state of the art machinery, and facilities. To indicate that ML products will take a drop kick in QC just because they're coming "north of the border" is a blind statement. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that the "next gen" ML's are of even higher tolerance..

For those that feel that moving it north to Canada is a slap in the face to an "American Icon".. well.. consider this, the decision to do it was MADE BY AMERICANS ! and was probably done to streamline and ensure that the brand is able to remain viable and still be creative after all, the design and engineering is still going to remain in Kansas... well at least for now..

Gordon's comment of "Martin Logan, I will not accept it any longer! I refuse to make any new purchases of your gear. I will not recommend nor endorse your product. Further, I will visit your site today and request that my "club" membership be closed. Finally, I will return the CD you sent me." is just more protectionist knee jerk reactionist behaviour.. and is kindof sad... If I behaved like that towards every thing that has ever been either out-sourced, or transitioned due to the effects of a "global economy" I wouldn't be buying ANYTHING, let alone a pair of speakers.

Robertawillisjr is correct. Canada and the US have a long history of being close business partners. Their is a large technical skilled workforce up here, and we have a great deal of expertise in robotics, and material handling that can be put to good use. Hmm.. last time I looked, the Canadian flag was still on the side of the robotic arm used by NASA.

Let's not get carried away by all this, and see what comes of it.. who knows the next great ML may actually have a "Made in Canada" sticker on it's backside.. now wouldn't that just rock and roll !
But one thing I will concur with is that ML should probably rework that marketing slogan of "The Great American Speaker Company" ... perhaps it needs to change to "The Great NORTH-American Speaker Company".. Justin if you're reading.. it's something to bring up at the next "marketing meeting".

 

[Gordon]

I'm not blaming our friends to the north. They are going to pick up the business. If and this is a big if, the production results in a lower production cost, will this be passed on to the consumer? Don't hold your breath.

Gordon

 

[Gordon]

I think the marketing thing is what's driving my displeasure. Here in the states, we're outsourcing everything. The "domestic automakers" barely make a car here anymore. Yet, we hear the "Buy American Cars" that aren't American anymore. I'm not a knee jerk protectionist. I own a Toyota. All my TVs, furniture and darn near everything in my house are imports. Why? because your right Double D, our ex companies don't make anything here anymore.

Can the Canadians build these speakers? Of course they can. The fit and finish of my P-digms were stellar and I believe that the ML line will be the same. Just please change the marketing and be honest about it.

Gordon

 

[RichTeer]

Martin Logan, I will not accept it any longer! I refuse to make any new purchases of your gear. I will not recommend nor endorse your product. Further, I will visit your site today and request that my "club" membership be closed. Finally, I will return the CD you sent me.

Justin, I realize your the conduit to this club and need to remain upbeat. How can anyone remain upbeat after putting twelve families out on the street?

Gordon

I can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek here, so my apologies if I misinterpret what you say. But think of this: if every ML customer had the same reaction that I quote above, the whole company would go down the tubes, not just 12 families. In that light, don't you agree that what I quoted is a tad over reacting?

Personally, I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. Provided product quality remains at its current high levels (or even higher) and prices aren't increased, where ML (or anyone else) choses to build their products is immaterial to me (moral issues like not using child labour notwithstanding!).

 

[FISH_MAN]

I've been a ML owner for only two years. I heard and saw them many years ago and had always dreamed of owning them. The American made title has always had an appeal to me, especially when spending discretionary income.

Disappointment in the company would be an understatement to me. I don't like the move and putting people out of a job.

Rich, I think the reason this topic is fairly dead is most Americans have become desensitized to the loss of jobs in this country. It has been going on for so long, it's expected, and when it happens, we shrug our shoulders and accept it.

Martin Logan, I will not accept it any longer! I refuse to make any new purchases of your gear. I will not recommend nor endorse your product. Further, I will visit your site today and request that my "club" membership be closed. Finally, I will return the CD you sent me.

Justin, I realize your the conduit to this club and need to remain upbeat. How can anyone remain upbeat after putting twelve families out on the street?

Gordon

And that is the beauty of a free market! you can spend your money with whom ever you choose.

 

[DrJRapp]

And it seemed to me, and still seems to me, that many of the members of the forum that have been on here for years, and posted on so many different topics of discussion, were utterly absent from this thread.

Perhaps most people realize that other than an opportunity to vent, this thread will not change the outcome. We are such a small community in relationship to overall ML sales that if we all went elsewhere Shoreview would hardly notice.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I certainly have complete faith in the ability of Paradigm's Workforce to manufacture ESL's. As has been pointed out many times in this thread, what is being lost are years of experience specifically building ESL's. I hope that they at least transfer a few of the Employee's at the Kansas Plant to at least share some of the knowledge gleaned from years of experience.

Then again, I have not read of many/any issues with Chinese built Gen.2 Panels from the ESL Design Series Speakers.

It seems everyone is on the same page about the perception of Martin Logan being "The Great American Speaker Company" being sullied by this action.
I really think ML might want to change that slogan as it sadly will no longer apply as of March.

Prior to this, I had certain issues with the Design Series. Specifically, the non ESL models as I truly felt they traded on decades of Brand Prestige to offer Martin Logan Speakers at lower price points. Moreover, after the non ESL Montage was reviewed by Stereophile, not a single ML Review has appeared in the Magazine since.

Given how many Martin Logan Speakers were Reviewed in Stereophile prior to this, it really said something to me. In truth, I was enticed to purchase my first pair of Martin Logans by Sam Tellig's review of the Aerius i.

I realize many other excellent Publications have reviewed the current generation of ML Speakers and almost all have overwhelmingly complimentary. It is just surprising that after the Prodigy won Stereophile's Speaker of the Year that the Summit was never reviewed. Nor any other ESL ML. I know there was some animosity from the review of the Montage, but this should not have been so acrimonious to preclude future reviews.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Rich]

do you really think that other factory workers in Canada cannot learn how to build ESL panels???

No, Fish, I don't think that. I never said they couldn't learn to build them properly. I questioned how long it would take them to learn how to build them properly, and whether quality would suffer in the meantime. Where did I get such a silly notion that there was an art to putting together a stat panel and that it took three years or more of training for someone to truly master it? Well, I toured the Martin Logan factory and talked with the people who were actually making the panels. I watched what they were doing and asked their supervisors questions. Those people told me that there was an art to it and that it took three years or more for someone to truly master that art. So please don't act like I don't know what I am talking about. I got it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Perhaps most people realize that other than an opportunity to vent, this thread will not change the outcome. We are such a small community in relationship to overall ML sales that if we all went elsewhere Shoreview would hardly notice.

I understand that sentiment. It is pretty much what Gordon Gray said earlier. But I don't understand why that would matter. We aren't on this board in the hopes of directing ML management. We are on here, I think, because we love Martin Logan speakers and have formed a community to discuss that which we love. So it surprises me when such a huge event occurs and so many don't even bother to pipe in an opinion, be it good, bad or indifferent.

 

[User211]

My guess is that the humidity levels in your country are to blame for your shorter panel lifespan. Or perhaps the air pollution is worse where you live. I don't know. But here in the States, fifteen to twenty years is not uncommon.

Hm. The States is huge and has a far wider range of climate than here, so I guess I reject that idea overall. In some places, maybe.

I believe you are incorrect. Mylar doesn't lose the ability to hold tension.

I was incorrectly speculatiing here after a hard day and therefore a few beers. I think that this does appear to be the case, though I kind of feel that tension can't help, I can't prove it. Google reveals little on it in the short time I spent looking. Any materials experts around?

Electrostatic panels are not built by engineers. They are built by manual laborers....

But to throw away the experience of a dozen people that have been doing it for years, and abruptly shift production to another factory in another country . . . well, it does raise some concerns about the transition, doesn't it?

Not sure Dave really agrees. Can it really be that hard? Surely they use some gauge to measure the tension, so they know when they have it right. Not saying old hands aren't better, but hey... surely QC would reject any duff panels.

Also not sure I was saying that engineers make the panels, either. I wasn't in fact. Let's not worry about that, though.

I might raise a poll on panel ageing, so we can get some real world stats on how long they really last. Could be interesting.

 

[Rich]

so we can get some real world stats

No pun intended?

 

[JMAUSGP]

Okay, it may just be me, and sometimes it really is just me, but as a long time ML owner, from the mid 90s to present and a somewhat long term forum visitor, the reason I have not chimed in is because switching the manufacturing of ML speakers to Canada does not really change that much, nor does it mean very much in the big picture. And here is why.

ML still has its headquarters, design, marketing, and support and everything else in Kansas. In my mind that keeps it as The Great American Speaker Company. And here is why.

If you drive a Toyota truck that is manufactured in Princeton Indiana, does that make Toyota an American company or a Tundra an American car?

If you drive a BMW X5 that is made in South Carolina, does that make BMW an American Company or the X5 an American car?

If you own a Honda Accord that is manufactued in Ohio, does that make Honda an American Company? Of course not.

Likewise, if you own a General Electric product that was manufactured in Mexico or China, does that make General Electric a Chinese or Mexican company. I certainly hope not, because they would not have to pay US corporate taxes on all that they sell and manufacturer worldwide.

Manufacture and assembly of anything will generaly move to the lowest cost point, where ever that happens to be. It is just good business sense/cents. It has been going on for decades and it will continue in the future.

Keeping all other corporate functions at a particular location is what makes a company what it is. The intellectual capital is what makes a company what it is and more importantly where it is.

And technically Canada is an American country. Just look at any world map and it is described as the Americas or at least North America, just like the US.

I belong to another club and we hold a national meet each year, we consider Mexico, the US and Canada as North America, so I don't even have a problem with MLs current marketing 'tag' line. They are still the Great American Speaker Company and yeah I am going to give them the leeway of saying Handcrafted Electrostatic Speakers from the Heartland of America. Since the R&D is still in Kansas they will still make the first one by hand.

As a founder of 3 international companies, that all started with just two guys in Indiana with an idea and grew to be world leaders in their respective fields, manufacturing and sales never really mattered to us. We went where ever the market took us. Now we have 800 employees with offices thoughout the world and sales in over 60 countries. We now have over 4000 customers and no matter what we do people tend to think of us as a US company based in the good old midwest.

And they are right, that is who we are and more importantly what we are, we are simply the best at what we create. I guess I tend to look at the reality of the world economy and manufacturing and sales don't really make a company what it is or where it is, at least not in my book.

So anyway, the argument above seems like a good enough reason for a lot of people to not have to comment about the fact that a dozen manufacturing and assembly jobs have moved a few hundred miles to the Great White North

I do feel bad for the families that are affected by this, but I don't see how berating a company for taking advantage of cost savings by utilizing unused manufacturing capacity that it already owns is going to help the situation. I tthink I am pretty sure all of you would like nothing more than to see ML prosper and keep producing the Worlds Best Speakers.:music:

 

[RichTeer]

It seems everyone is on the same page about the perception of Martin Logan being "The Great American Speaker Company" being sullied by this action.
I really think ML might want to change that slogan as it sadly will no longer apply as of March.

I have no qualms with the phrase "The Great American Speaker Company"; this will be true all the time MartinLogan remains owned by Americans and continues to make great speakers.

I do agree the "Handcrafted Speakers from the Heartland" corrolory might need rethinking, though, although to be fair "the Heartland" to me doesn't strike me as being US-centric (nor any other country for that matter). *Shrug*

Edit: in the preceding post, JMAUSGP articualted my thoughts much better than me!

 

[Bernard]

Okay, it may just be me, and sometimes it really is just me, but as a long time ML owner, from the mid 90s to present and a somewhat long term forum visitor, the reason I have not chimed in is because switching the manufacturing of ML speakers to Canada does not really change that much, nor does it mean very much in the big picture. And here is why.

Great post, Joe ! I did not quote the whole post in order to save some space. I wish others would follow suit with their quotes as I get tired of seeing long posts quoted.

I did not join in the discussion as this is all just speculation. We just have to wait and see what happens. If it turns out that the Canadian plant is incapable of producing a perfect speaker (which is unlikely), and I need a good speaker, I will go across the pond to my first love, the speaker that first seduced me with its charms - Quad, not withstanding that ML seduced me away from my first love. This would be the same as leaving one Justin for another Justin.

There are many fine speakers out there, so ML would be wise to hold up the standards if they want to stay in business.