ML Production moving

[Len44]

Rich for ML CEO!

I'm right proud to 2nd That nomination!!!:bowdown:

 

[David Matz]

The key to a successful business strategy is letting the engineers "play"

JMAUSGP, Great posts!

I understand the passion here. I work in Technology for a large company. We are losing jobs monthly to India... 100 people in one area one week, 60 another week, 80 people here, 150 there...and it's not going to cease for us or for anyone else. Soon China will be too expensive, as JMAUSGP mentions.

Of course, it sucks! The only thing one can do is wish those people the best, hope their roots are strong, and hope they have the capability and desire to possibly learn new things. There is nothing certain in life other than death and taxes.

As for ML Mgmt(=Shoreline?/ Shoreview?), I am not sure why they would do anything to hurt their customers. The purpose of their (or any) business is to create customers. And it is a lot easier to get a return customer than to find a new one. The fact that this site exists is a huge intangible value to the Martin Logan concern. Loyal fans = return customers + evangelism. What can be better for a company?

The reality for the audio industry is that once the founder in the audio industry retires, who will pick up the reins? In this case someone has, and paid a decent buck for it - at the height of an economic expansion. Why do people think they want to destroy the company?

I do agree about diluting the ESL brand recoginition with box speakers, but again, there are many successful branding examples using the "branded house" strategy. Virgin Group, anyone?

As I mentioned above, the only realistic concern I would have from a business strategy perspective is how can the engineers experiment and play around when the manufacturing facility no longer near their physical location. Great technology is about great R&D, which takes a lot of trial and error. Thomas Edison ran over 1,000 experiments when he was working on the light bulb in their NJ plant. Boulder Audio just purchased some expensive metal cutting machines to produce their prototypes in hours on site, rather than work with a third party and wait weeks. The engineers then can put together their designs in a new chasis faster, measure, explore, etc. However, there are hundreds of successful companies who outsource their manufacturing, as mentioned.

The key to a successful Martin Logan with this move is letting engineers have fun and taking any impediments out of their way so they can create great new products.

 

[Rich]

Also, when the CLX tech only hits 60Hz, is a range of all-ESL panels below the CLX actually practical?

That's what the R&D dept. is supposed to be for. If Soundlabs can make a full range stat that goes down as low as 24 to 30 hz. (depending on the model), then why the heck can't Martin Logan? Heck, even Quads go lower than the CLX. I think it is silly they continue to rely on the hybrid design for all of their models, save one. For the smaller, less expensive ones, sure, I can understand the need for a hybrid design. But why not produce some larger, full range ESL-only stats that can compete with the Soundlabs, Quads, and the big Maggies (20.1's) at the higher end? Surely they could manage to produce such a beast at this new super-duper high tech factory they are moving to.

Rich - I'm completely stunned by your input into this thread. It's phenominal. Really!

Appreciate the kudos, Justin.

 

[User211]

That's what the R&D dept. is supposed to be for. If Soundlabs can make a full range stat that goes down as low as 24 to 30 hz. (depending on the model), then why the heck can't Martin Logan? Heck, even Quads go lower than the CLX. I think it is silly they continue to rely on the hybrid design for all of their models, save one. For the smaller, less expensive ones, sure, I can understand the need for a hybrid design. But why not produce some larger, full range ESL-only stats that can compete with the Soundlabs, Quads, and the big Maggies (20.1's) at the higher end? Surely they could manage to produce such a beast at this new super-duper high tech factory they are moving to.



Appreciate the kudos, Justin.

Never mind ML, Quad can't even publish a technical spec: Weighty Quad Tech Spec

But why should they bother even getting the tech details right? They don't even make them - they are in fact - you guessed it - made in China. So Quad was more severely less patriotic way before this move by ML.

Fair point about the technical dept. I wonder what it was about the dual-force drivers that made substantial LF output in the CLX a no-no. But then I wonder a lot about things I'm not too clued up on. Certainly a 2905 is way smaller than the CLX. I guess the English designers are just cleverer...

I'd still take the CLX over the 2905, though, in all honesty.

 

[Rich]

For those interested, Shoreview provides on their website a page describing their growth strategy for Martin Logan. You can read it here.

Here are the four main points, along with my comments:

"Broaden product offering through continued investment in product development"

This sounds good, except that it seems the broadening in the past few years has been mostly at the low end. The ESL line really hasn't seen any broadening from the time Shoreline took over. Newer models replacing older models, yes. But no real broadening of the number of models.

"Continue to grow with the Company’s existing national retail partners"

Read: Continue to expand the lower end models into Best Buy/Magnolia/Tweeter type retail establishments. Compete with Bose, Polk and Klipsch for the low fi home theater and mid fi market.

"Increase the Company’s geographic footprint, particularly in international markets"

Increasing the footprint not just in international markets, but also in international production facilities. Seriously though, building international sales is a good thing for any speaker company to strive towards.

"Pursue additional low-cost sourcing and manufacturing opportunities in Asia"

Cheapen the products, cheapen the brand, and try to make a quick buck in the process.

And there it is in black and white, the four cornerstones of Shoreline's business management plan for growing Martin Logan! In summary, make more cheaper products for less money and sell them at national retail stores all over the world!

I don't really see anything on there about expanding research and development of the higher end products, or of maximizing the brand through strict quality control and increased customer service, or of modernizing the facilities in Lawrence, or of working to build more partnerships with local dealers, or . . . or . . . or . . . well, you get my point. Their growth strategy seems pretty well focused on the low-fi home theater market.

I am glad to see some optimists on this thread regarding ML's latest move and future direction, but given what I have seen lately, given this four point plan for growth, and given what has happened to several other companies that were bought out by similar investment companies, I am afraid that I am not so optimistic about the future of the brand. Hopeful, always. But not so optimistic.

 

[Rich]

Never mind ML, Quad can't even publish a technical spec: Weighty Quad Tech Spec

Yeah, I had a hard time finding that too. You have to download the .pdf brochure to find the tech specs. It is located here. They say they go down into the low 30's.

Made in China now, huh? Geez, is nothing sacred?

 

[Craig]

Some people in the thread seem to think ML corporate will care. I do not think what we say about the move matters...

Maybe we should also start a thread on all the other companies in the world who have changed production facilities?

...Trouble is there are many "....longtime members of this forum [who] are some of the most loyal and dedicated customers of this company" who have left, no longer post, or do minimal posting here due to the progression of this forum into a more known place. Great to see the site progress and grow from what it was, but forum growth also has its drawbacks.

- The decision apparently has already been made by the corporate office and I doubt anything we say will make a difference or they would have already asked their customer base (us) our thoughts. Of course the company needs to do what's necessary to survive in a tougher economic environment but if they're moving jobs overseas and then why should I maintain loyalty?

- I read somewhere today that JBL is no longer.

- The older forum seemed to be a slightly friendlier place. I don't post as much as I used to but I'm also busier these days.

 

[User211]

Yeah, I had a hard time finding that too. You have to download the .pdf brochure to find the tech specs. It is located here. They say they go down into the low 30's.

Made in China now, huh? Geez, is nothing sacred?

32 Hz in the case of the 2905, but it's -6DB down. Other sites I found quoted it as +/-3DB and I was thinking I'm pretty sure that isn't right. Wonder what the -3DB figure really is.

 

[User211]

For those interested, Shoreview provides on their website a page describing their growth strategy for Martin Logan. You can read it here.

Here are the four main points, along with my comments:

"Broaden product offering through continued investment in product development"

This sounds good, except that it seems the broadening in the past few years has been mostly at the low end. The ESL line really hasn't seen any broadening from the time Shoreline took over. Newer models replacing older models, yes. But no real broadening of the number of models.

"Continue to grow with the Company’s existing national retail partners"

Read: Continue to expand the lower end models into Best Buy/Magnolia/Tweeter type retail establishments. Compete with Bose, Polk and Klipsch for the low fi home theater and mid fi market.

"Increase the Company’s geographic footprint, particularly in international markets"

Increasing the footprint not just in international markets, but also in international production facilities. Seriously though, building international sales is a good thing for any speaker company to strive towards.

"Pursue additional low-cost sourcing and manufacturing opportunities in Asia"

Cheapen the products, cheapen the brand, and try to make a quick buck in the process.

And there it is in black and white, the four cornerstones of Shoreline's business management plan for growing Martin Logan! In summary, make more cheaper products for less money and sell them at national retail stores all over the world!

I don't really see anything on there about expanding research and development of the higher end products, or of maximizing the brand through strict quality control and increased customer service, or of modernizing the facilities in Lawrence, or of working to build more partnerships with local dealers, or . . . or . . . or . . . well, you get my point. Their growth strategy seems pretty well focused on the low-fi home theater market.

I am glad to see some optimists on this thread regarding ML's latest move and future direction, but given what I have seen lately, given this four point plan for growth, and given what has happened to several other companies that were bought out by similar investment companies, I am afraid that I am not so optimistic about the future of the brand. Hopeful, always. But not so optimistic.

Hm. That really does look like the writing is on the wall. Time to switch to Apogees Now they really do go down low. And they are as American as pie. Contact Rich Murray at True Sound Works. He had some restored Divas on Audiogon for $10,000, and some Full Ranges for $25,000.

OK, I am taking the Mickey, but you get the point.

 

[Craig]

Because they/we/you can post to any thread we like. If the moderators do not like a post they can use their censorship power and remove them.

Yes they can and do. It wouldn't be so bad if they just removed the offending post but instead, whole threads mysteriously disappear. I have had my post vanish along with them so I'm less likely to spend time posting anymore.

 

[Craig]

That's what the R&D dept. is supposed to be for. If Soundlabs can make a full range stat that goes down as low as 24 to 30 hz. (depending on the model), then why the heck can't Martin Logan? Heck, even Quads go lower than the CLX. I think it is silly they continue to rely on the hybrid design for all of their models, save one. For the smaller, less expensive ones, sure, I can understand the need for a hybrid design. But why not produce some larger, full range ESL-only stats that can compete with the Soundlabs, Quads, and the big Maggies (20.1's) at the higher end? Surely they could manage to produce such a beast at this new super-duper high tech factory they are moving to. ...

Soundlabs can go very low and sound great. I heard a pair recently but they are HUGE!. I'm sure ML could make a full range panel with deep bass but it would have to be 8 to 9 feet tall X 4+ four feet wide like the Soundlabs. It would require a very large room and be ultra-expensive but then so were the Statements.

 

[Bernard]

Newer models replacing older models, yes. But no real broadening of the number of models.

How many more models would you like to see (and at what prices)? Is there a real need for models at say, $2,000 increments?

 

[wrat]

'tis a shame,next speaker will NOT be a 'Logan

 

[sleepysurf]

Interesting review of the Paradigm C5 Center Channel speaker here, paired with non-ML electrostatic speakers... http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home...r-channel-speaker-and-two-electrostatics.html

Of note, on the 3rd page of the review is a video link (click the photo to watch), showing the fully automated production of the speaker cabinet in the Paradigm factory.

Definitely a mass-production setup!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Rich,

I'm starting to believe your perspective has validity.

Worthy of note, the new MD never did answer my questions.

How sad.

Gordon

PS: Justin / ML MD sent me a PM this AM.

 

[Gordon]

Darn it, I said I wouldn't post here again!

Rich, if I recall, your a lawyer? My sister is a lawyer and she, as you, has the uncanny ability to pick the fly poop from the pepper. I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and you've seemed to separate the wheat from the chaff. Thanks.

Gordon, if my memory is correct, the MD was with Polk Audio when they sent a lot of their manufacturing to China and Mexico.

G

 

[Rich]

How many more models would you like to see (and at what prices)? Is there a real need for models at say, $2,000 increments?

Ah, but you miss my point Bernard. They provided a four-point plan for growing the company. I was trying to read between the lines and analyze what that plan meant for the future direction of the company, using the past couple of years as a guide. That first point was one that basically stated where their limited R&D resources would be directed in the future. It stated "broaden product offering through investment in product development."

If they don't intend to broaden the offering at the high end, and indeed if as you imply, there is no need to, then this statement means exactly what I fear it means. The R&D department will be strictly focused on broadening the lower end product lines. Designing new products from the ground up requires a great deal of R&D time. Lower end products tend to be changed and upgraded more often too, which again takes a lot more R&D time. Where does that leave R&D for the higher end ESL's? Stagnated. Improvements will be incremental, and probably mostly esthetic and more about marketing B.S. and broad appeal than actual technological achievement.

Was there one point in that four-point growth scheme about investing in ground-breaking new developments to Martin Logan's core business, the venerable ESL line? Nope. And if you read between the lines of that four point plan, it is clear that they don't really intend to do so.

As for what I would want, I stated it above. I would like to see more R&D effort put into Martin Logan's legacy technology. Improve the ESL panel. Make a smaller, full range ESL speaker that can go down to 30 hz. or below. Can they do this at the same time as the other things they are doing? Sure, if they are willing to put in the resources and beef up the R&D staff in Lawrence. But at this point, I would say all indications are that they do not intend to pursue such a strategy.

They do not see any quick profit or sales growth to be made by investing in the ESL line. I haven't seen anything lately to indicate otherwise. I think moving ESL production to a fully-automated factory pretty much says it all. They are trying to broaden the appeal of the ESL to a greater audience by downsizing all the models, while making them cheaper, therefore increasing profit margins. But at what expense? I expect quality and customer service will be the first things to suffer under this new strategy for growth.

 

[Bernard]

Ah, but you miss my point Bernard. They provided a four-point plan for growing the company. I was trying to read between the lines and analyze what that plan meant for the future direction of the company, using the past couple of years as a guide. That first point was one that basically stated where their limited R&D resources would be directed in the future. It stated "broaden product offering through investment in product development."

If they don't intend to broaden the offering at the high end, and indeed if as you imply, there is no need to, then this statement means exactly what I fear it means. The R&D department will be strictly focused on broadening the lower end product lines.

Okay, I see what you mean. I was thinking along the lines that it would be expensive to invest in the development and production of speakers between the Summit X and CLX in $2K increments.

The video on the Ethos seems to bear out your concerns, i.e. it is disconcerting to see ML come out with the Motion series at $400 and $500 per pair. The price difference is, to my mind, negligible, so why spend the money in the development, tooling costs, etc of both unless you are really going for the low end?

BTW it's good to see that they are coming up with a "Vantage with a larger panel size".

As for what I would want, I stated it above. I would like to see more R&D effort put into Martin Logan's legacy technology. Improve the ESL panel. Make a smaller, full range ESL speaker that can go down to 30 hz. or below.

They would come up against the laws of physics. I'm sure they attempted that with the CLX and could not do it even with that panel size. BTW a number of people here claim that the legacy products with the larger panels sound better than the newer, smaller stuff.

 

[Craig]

...
BTW it's good to see that they are coming up with a "Vantage with a larger panel size"...

Isn't that basically known as the Spire?

 

[Rich]

Isn't that basically known as the Spire?

Careful what you say, Craig. Fish, in his ultimate wisdom, will be all over you.