I want to upgrade and need help?

[JLasher22443]

I have been bitten by the upgrade bug, bad. Every time I get on this forum and read posts and look at members systems I start to dream of more things I can do to my setup. Well I have decided to sell my motorcycle and dump the money into my HT well most of the money. It was just collecting dust anyways and the wife won’t ride on it with me so I might as well do it. I am thinking of dropping about $4000 of it into my HT. My equipment is as follows:

Speakers:
Clarity fronts
Cinema i
Script I’s rears
Depth i
Equipment:
Yamaha RX-V2700
Yamaha LPX-510
Xbox Elite with HDDVD
Direct TV HD
Panamax 5400

Here is what I want to do with the money.

Upgrade Equipment Wants:
Multi-Channel amp
Blue-ray Disc Player with CD capability
Another Panamax 5400
New stand under center speaker

I want to purchase a multi-channel amp for my speakers because I have been told that would improve my HT a lot. So I am asking for advice on what would be the best route to go. I have looked at the Rotel RMB-1095 and also the Emotiva XPA-5. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

[tsmooth]

YES, I believe your first move would have to be an amp since you have MLs for all of your channels. I am currently using the Sunfire Cinema Grand (which can be had for about $1K used) with great results. That pick was based off of the opinions of the group (they match well with Logans) and the specs of 200W at 8 ohms and 400w at 4 ohms for all five channels (good idea to get something that doubles the watts for each drop to handle the current these speakers need). That or the two amps you have listed I believe would be good for the price range you are looking for. The other upgrades depend on what you want, need, and feel is important for your setup.

 

[eknuds01]

There's no need to spend all of the 4k at once. I suggest you upgrade in a piece-wise fashion. Ask 10 people how they would spend your money and you'll get 10 different answers. Here are my suggestions... Since there isn't a consensus on what components will impact your system the most, I think that the BIG three would be:

Room treatments
Speakers
Quality of recording

An honorable mention goes to the CD player (for music). Since you are a HT junkie, probably any of the Blu-Ray players will be a nice upgrade over a standard universal player.

Now the amp(s) will certainly help. If you aren't scared to buy a used amplifier, there are MANY options available in terms of multichannel amps. As tmsooth suggested a used cinema grand is a fine choice. Even the new sunfire amps could be had for around 3k. I don't know if you'll get a seperate pre-amp, or use your integrated (the yamaha), but if the pre-amp/yamaha can handle multiple external amps, another idea is to buy two amps - one for the front speakers and another for the rear channel speakers. The simplest route, though, is a nice multichannel amp.

Other options? Well you could upgrade the speakers. Again, if you aren't opposed to used equipment you could get a used pair of Ascents i/Aeon i/SL3, etc AND a used amp and that would be a nice improvement right there.

Many folks will tell you the best money they ever spent is on room treatments. Now, if you listen to movies more than 2 channel audio, maybe room treatments are less important in that case. Still, treating the room can make everything sound better.

There's never a silver bullet with this hobby, but that's part of the fun!

Erik

 

[Rich]

I have one of the precursors to your Yamaha receiver (the RX-V2095), and upgrading from that receiver to quality separates was one of the biggest leaps I ever made in sound quality. I recommend you consider selling the Yammy altogether and replacing it with a quality multichannel amplifier and pre/pro. I highly recommend Sunfire, but there are lots of other great brands too. I am sure you will get lots of suggestions. In my opinion, as far as the amp goes, 400 wpc is better than 200 wpc because it gives you added headroom for the dynamics of home theater. But it must be a quality amplifier that puts out a lot of current. That is most important.

 

[JLasher22443]

Thanks Erik, Tsmooth, and Rich for your ideas and comments.

Erik I just installed a bunch of acoustical traps in my room and posted pictures in the DIY forum, its title is “My First DIY”. The traps make the room sound muffled even when talking in the room now. But, the sound quality in the room now is outstanding; especially when the speakers rock in the action scenes of a movie.

Rich the selling of the Yamaha for me is hard being that I just got it a few months back and will loose a lot of money by selling it on eBay or something. I bought it before I was a member here and didn’t know all of this knowledge here on this forum was available to me. Now I do and that’s why I am asking for help. Before I would have just listened to the guys at Tweeter on what to buy, now I know better. Also my wife is a very understanding woman when it comes to my obsession for HT but, she probably would frown upon getting rid of something I just got and loosing money. Also I am curious about your comment on 400 amps instead of 200WPC. The speakers I have say they need 200WPC. So how much can I push to the speakers I have without damaging them?

 

[kcl]

I'll give another vote for Sunfire, and I highly recommend that you consider buying used off of Audiogon. High-quality, solid state amps and pre-pros like the Sunfires have excellent longevity and you can get very good deals on used equipment. I would also suggest that an upgrade to both a pre-processor and an amp would serve you well.

As for 400 vs 200 watts per channel, with your equipment I think 200 watts should be more than sufficient. Unless you're planning on upgrading relatively soon to Vantages or Summits, I don't think the additional wattage would make much difference for you.

 

[jjcarr]

For Blu-Ray, just get a PS3, it's the best player out there. It's firmware update capabilities are well beyond any other stand alone players. Heck, I woke up one morning, downloaded the latest firmware update, and suddenly the internal CD player had upsampling....it also plays SACD's.

HDMI output, upsamples normal DVD's, plays MP3's, wireless, all built in.

J

 

[Pcar928fan]

Ask 10 people get 20 answers, so here is another one.

If you are IN TO HT (and it sounds like you ARE) you need THE BEST center channel you can get... The new Stage is supposed to be AWESOME (isn't that the new top of the line), it is also expensive. The Theater/Theater i's are also AWESOME!

I use a Rotel RMB1095 for all my surround stuff and a RB1090 for my front left and right. I like them! They are a bit brite with the ML's, but nice. Probably with better room treatment (TONS of tile in my house) they would REALLY SING! That amp can be had for a good price.

I would also consider an upgrade to the front pair of speakers too. I would say Aerius i at least and Ascent i preferred paired w/ the Theater and the Rotel gear would be a GREAT combination for HT!

Oh, amp power. ML's are 4 Ohm loads or LESS and so looking at amps they are normally rated at 8 ohms and then they will also list the power output at 4 ohms and you want an amp that will come close to doubling down. If it is 200 wpc at 8 then it needs to jump to at least 350 at 4 ohms and 400 would be optimal. Feed you speakers AS MUCH CLEAN POWER AS YOU CAN AFFORD TO GIVE THEM! Yea, they may be rated at 200 wpc, but if you can provide an amp that can give clean power to 400 wpc you will never over drive the amp and unless you are just stupid with the volume control your speakers either. Better to have more clean power that you hardly use than being right on the edge w/ a 200wpc amp and have it always clipping and distorting because the amp can't handle the ML load.

Good luck w/ your adventure and I hope your case of Joeyitis resolves before you are completely out of money! LOL!

 

[JLasher22443]

Thanks ken for your input. I have been looking online at the Sunfire amps and I really can’t afford to purchase an amp and processor for what I am looking to spend. As for getting used equipment I am just too unsure about doing that. To buy something used from someone you don’t know takes a lot of trust in what information they are giving you and hoping they are telling you the truth. I’d rather spend the extra money and get new and know what I am getting. So I guess the whole idea behind this thread was to get info on whether or not I should spend the whole $4000 on a good multi channel amp and wait for the other equipment I want till I have more money. Or should I get a descent amp and purchase the other stuff as well. So thanks to everyone’s opinions and I think I am going to go to MeyerEmco in Falls Church and listen to some amps this evening and maybe take one home to try out on my setup.

J I appreciate the effort you put into your post but it you read my list of equipment that I already have, you would see that I own an Xbox 360 Elite and have no use for a PS3 in my house. Just Kidding! Thanks for the advice. Go Xbox!

James thanks for the info and help. As I stated above I will be looking at Rotel tonight to see how they sound. Also I have been put on the waiting list for the Emotiva XPA-5 when they get restocked in April. So hopefully I can test the Rotel and the Emotiva at the same time in my system. As for my center channel I feel that there isn’t much difference in specs from my Cinema I and the Stage. But I don’t know a lot about specs so maybe I am wrong. My center does a great job now and I am very pleased with it. The only speakers that I think I might upgrade are my fronts. I really like the looks of the new Summits and would love to make them my fronts. I haven’t yet heard them but I am sure they will sound great. If I do get those in the near future I plan on making my Clarity’s rears. But that is a lot of money and a lot of kissing my wife’s butt. She is my sugar momma.

 

[eknuds01]

It is your perogative to buy used or not. To give you some insight to my system:

CD player: used
Pre-Amp: used
amp (sunfire): used
cables: used

The aerius i speakers I have were the floor models.

In general, most audiophiles are very anal with their equipment. They take really good care of their stuff and lots of people hold on to the original boxes and manuals.

I have been to the meyeremco in Falls Church. It is OK - some decent stuff there. I think they carry McIntosh amps, Rotel too.

I would not be scared to buy used equipment. It is a fine way to 'break in' to this hobby at lower cost and you can always, say a year later, sell your equipment and put that toward a new purchase. IMO, I don't see the need to drop 4k on a mutlichannel amp. The reason being is that you are a relative novice (so it seems) and you haven't listened to many different high end amps outside of your yamaha. I hardly qualify as an expert on amps for HT applications, but you can do a lot worse than a used cinema grand or new/used Rotel. The point I am making is that a used cinema grand would set you back just $1000-$1500, say (maybe a little more depending on the model) and you can put the extra money toward something else.

Just my 0.02

Erik

 

[DTB300]

I would not be scared to buy used equipment. It is a fine way to 'break in' to this hobby at lower cost and you can always, say a year later, sell your equipment and put that toward a new purchase. IMO, I don't see the need to drop 4k on a mutlichannel amp. The reason being is that you are a relative novice (so it seems) and you haven't listened to many different high end amps outside of your yamaha. I hardly qualify as an expert on amps for HT applications, but you can do a lot worse than a used cinema grand or new/used Rotel. The point I am making is that a used cinema grand would set you back just $1000-$1500, say (maybe a little more depending on the model) and you can put the extra money toward something else.

Excellent points made by Erik. For 4k you can get multiple items and not just an amp. The multiple items would be a greater improvement than just the amp - especially while using the Yamaha in front of the amps as it will still be giving is signature to the sound.

90% of my setup (2CH and HT combined) is used, either from trade-ins at dealers or from the 'Gon.

Sometimes you get transfered warranties with used, sometimes you do not, but the cost is usually so substantial over new it is not an issue.

Dan

 

[Brian_74]

Jason,
I bought my Sunfire used of the 'Gon. I found one that was only a couple months old, out of a dealer's showroom and he was selling it to do a new demo room. Sunfire has a transferable warranty policy, as long as the amp was originally purchased NEW from an authorized dealer. There are other amp manufacturers that also have transferable warranties. I wanna say Parasound is one. If you buy ANYTHING used off Audiogon, it's always best to talk to the seller in person. That way you can get a vibe about the seller and how the equipment was treated. In most cases, sellers of high end audio have taken good care of their pieces.

Anyhow, if you're still leaning towards new, checkout out Outlaw audio. They have a 30 day in-home policy and are great bang for the buck. You could get a really nice multi-channel amp for around $1500-$2000.

 

[eknuds01]

Forgot about Outlaw! Yes, great bang for the buck.

Erik

 

[Rich]

Feed you speakers AS MUCH CLEAN POWER AS YOU CAN AFFORD TO GIVE THEM! Yea, they may be rated at 200 wpc, but if you can provide an amp that can give clean power to 400 wpc you will never over drive the amp and unless you are just stupid with the volume control your speakers either. Better to have more clean power that you hardly use than being right on the edge w/ a 200wpc amp and have it always clipping and distorting because the amp can't handle the ML load.

James, I could not have said it better. Having extra headroom for transients and to avoid clipping is very important especially in home theater. And you never know when you might upgrade your front speakers to larger, more capable speakers. It would be a shame to have to upgrade the amp at that time, too because you didn't get a beefy enough amp to begin with.

Rich the selling of the Yamaha for me is hard being that I just got it a few months back and will loose a lot of money by selling it on eBay or something.

I understand that predicament. In that case, you should consider upgrading an amp now and continue to use your Yamaha for a pre/pro. Then you can upgrade the Yamaha down the road when it makes more sense to do so. I highly recommend purchasing used off of Audiogon (but not necessarily Ebay). Most folks doing business on the 'gon are decent individuals and audiophiles that will treat you well. I have bought several components, including my ARC Ref 3, from Audiogon. You can generally save from a third to a half of retail price by doing so and end up with gently used equipment in great condition.

I also agree that Outlaw audio is a great brand to consider. They produce a quality product at very reasonable prices.

 

[jk319]

I will agree with Dan that Erik has made excellent points. I also agree with the listing of most important aspects of the system.

Along the lines of maximizing bang for buck, there are other ways to achieve this outside of buying from someone you never met. I've bought, just in the last year:

4 surround speakers- blemished (can't tell!)
70 lb multi ch amp- refurbished
pre/pro- refurbished
receiver (now the new pre/pro)- refurbished
2 ch speakers- demo
2-ch integrated- new, but soon to be superceded, and hence the almost 40% discount

A few of the things listed above were bought from my main dealer. I did trade the pre/pro towards a new pair of HT mains. I hate haggling, and am no good at it. Not that I'll pay top dollar, just that I'll keep looking. So far, I have discovered the magic words are these: "Hey, I was thinking about getting this unit right here off Audiogon for $x,xxx". I've never seen the price drop so fast!

Parting shot: be patient, keep an open mind.

 

[jk319]

I forgot another item:

front projector: open-box

Every single piece listed in these two posts come with full-warranty, AFAIK. Still, I would also have little worries about finding a good seller on the gon.

 

[tsmooth]

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Audiogon is one of the best things created for people like us. Every transaction I have had on the 'gon has been positive and I believe I talked to just about every buyer/seller over the phone before any deal was made. Just like buying a house or used car, do your research, talk to the seller, and you should get a pretty good idea about the product you are purchasing. Let somebody else take the hit, burn in the product, and sell it to you for a fraction of what they paid for it!

 

[JLasher22443]

Well, I finally made an appointment to go to Overture. I am making the trek up there on Saturday. I plan on being there at 12 to speak with Ronnie. It should take me about 3 hours and 168 miles. Hopefully I will come home with something.

 

[DTB300]

Well, I finely made an appointment to go to Overture. I am making the trek up there on Saturday. I plan on being there at 12 to speak with Ronnie. It should take me about 3 hours and 168 miles. Hopefully I will come home with something.

Take your time listening, and do not feel you HAVE to purchase something just because you are there.

 

[Bernard]

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Audiogon is one of the best things created for people like us. Every transaction I have had on the 'gon has been positive

I concur. The only problem I had was with one slimeball who reneged on a deal when he was offered more money after we had settled on a price that was slightly below his asking price.