Expression 13A Speakers – Predictions Please - and Questions

[Hear Here]

Thanks Peter.

Frankly, I wasn't sure what to expect with GAIA vs spikes in your situation due to concrete (I assume) floor construction vs mine which is squeaky wood where GAIA would most likely be an improvement.

I'll be playing with toe this week. When I heard the 13A at the dealer the sweet spot was much larger so I want to figure out what adjustments allow for this. I may need to go do some measurements to aid in discovery.

Also, I have absolute minimum absorption at the moment, only on the front wall first reflection. I'll be adding back the panels I had on the side and back walls as needed.

edit: When moving the speakers more than a few millimeters, I simply tilt the speaker over and put two glossy type junk mail adverts under each foot and the speaker will now glide across the floor like it's on teflon. My spikes are on floor protector discs.

I'll be most interested on your comments about spikes vs Gaias. My floors are indeed solid timber on screed on concrete, so pretty solid. To protect the floor, I don't like to use spikes, even with protector shoes. I prefer to place my slate slabs on insulation sheets under the spiked speakers - with the spikes on steel or aluminium shoes. The Gaias are OK direct onto the floor. I'm not convinced either way whether I prefer the MLs on spikes or on Gaias.

OK, some good news. After a re-assessment of the kit I have at home, I decided on further adding to the "advantages" I'm offering the MLs compared with the AGs. I've taken out the NAD M12 as preamp and substituted the Micromega M100 integrated, working as preamp only and feeding the Sanders. This amp has a built-in Room Correction facility which sends a frequency sweep through each speaker to be picked up at 3 positions by a calibrated mic - therefore adjusting for combined amp, speaker and room deficiencies. This is an unusual system in that no PC is used apart from initial loading of the mic's calibration stats into the M100 via USB stick. Therefore unfortunately there's no before and after graph to show how measurements have been changed. Also, quite contrary to the ARC system for bass calibration in the MLs. the Micromega system asks for the mic to be pointed directly forward and not towards the ceiling above the mic.

With the room correction engaged, there's a sudden big closing of the gap in the sounds between the 2 pairs of speakers. The MLs have become much fuller and with more richness of sound without being too warm and very much closer to the AG sound. Now music is much more inclined to put a smile on your face - the first time this has happened. So I'm party delighted and partly disappointed! I'm pleased that the MLs are sounding so much more enjoyable to listen to, but disappointed that so much needs to be done to get this out of them - in particular the apparent need for full-range room correction.

Which do I now prefer? Difficult - the MLs have truly excellent bass and possibly slightly more sparkling treble, but overall, if I'm listening to Norah Jones' first (and far and away best) album from Tidal's MQA collection, I shut my eyes and can really believe that the singer is sitting on my hi-fi rack and singing just to me in her sultry voice - when playing through the AGs. There's still that extra "tingle factor" that I'm hoping can be squeezed from the MLs in due course.

The other good news is that the UK distributor is visiting on Thursday to switch the electronics board that has occasionally been reluctant to boot up and I'm sure he'll have more ideas. We'll get there in the end, although if he suggests mega-buck cables or new preamp and whatever else he wants to sell me, he'll probably be disappointed! Anyway I'm looking forward to his visit. Peter

Postscript - The Bristol Show was as disappointing as I was expecting. Lots of mid-fi equipment with speakers featuring 6" bass units (sometimes several) straining to produce "proper" bass. The best sound in show as far as I was concerned was from Focal Supra 3's (demonstrating Naim kit with rather unexciting music) and the 1960s-style Harbeth's M40.2. This looks remarkably like a BBC-designed monitor from decades past, but still an exceptional sound effortlessly delivered - as music should be.

 

[ttocs]

That's a very good report Peter! I'm happy for you!

The mic aimed at the ML's is something I've heard about due to being dipole design. I've also been cautioned by ML about doing full correction on ML's with Dirac, the app that I have, because Dirac is expecting "normal" drivers and can get confused from the extra reflections but maybe I'll try it again anyway, who knows?

 

[Hear Here]

That's a very good report Peter! I'm happy for you!

The mic aimed at the ML's is something I've heard about due to being dipole design. I've also been cautioned by ML about doing full correction on ML's with Dirac, the app that I have, because Dirac is expecting "normal" drivers and can get confused from the extra reflections but maybe I'll try it again anyway, who knows?

I suppose there's no harm in trying Dirac - if it sounds worse, you can disengage it easily. I'd be interested in your experience because NAD are signed up to Dirac, although my particular units are not Dirac-enabled. Whether this will be possible with future firmware updates I don't know. Some NAD kit is already enabled.

Have you managed to get hold of long Gaia threads so the feet can be securely fitted with 3/4" or so extra height on the back feet?

 

[ttocs]

I as yet have still not engaged Dirac, but will soon. I also am leaving the speakers on the spikes for now. I haven't been able to direct enough attention to the audio stuff of late due to happy and sad family and friends events recently. And then there's the time change - somehow I've lost an hour!! And I don't know where I left it.

Peter, how is your Expression journey going?

 

[Hear Here]

I as yet have still not engaged Dirac, but will soon. I also am leaving the speakers on the spikes for now. I haven't been able to direct enough attention to the audio stuff of late due to happy and sad family and friends events recently. And then there's the time change - somehow I've lost an hour!! And I don't know where I left it.

Peter, how is your Expression journey going?

Pretty depressingly, they're for sale - see my ad in Classified. I'll be selling the Sanders Magtech too as it suits the MLs very well - hopefully as a package to a UK buyer.

The 13As just don't match the sense of musical excitement or of "being there" compared with the Unos. Even with careful setting up by the helpful UK distributor and the big improvement that full-range room correction makes (offered by one of my preamps), they're still not what I was hoping for. Interesting experience but it's turned out to be a big (but hopefully not too costly) mistake.

I'll be getting my Avantgarde sub amps serviced soon and hopefully further upgraded in an attempt to get even more from my old speakers. Peter

 

[twich54]

Pretty depressingly, they're for sale - see my ad in Classified.

Bummer Peter, it's a shame, having heard the 13a's I know how good a speaker they are.

 

[ttocs]

Yes, what a bummer indeed. Each room has its challenges, and not every speaker is a perfect match.

I hope you do well in your sale. One selling point is having done extensive break-in.

 

[Hear Here]

Bummer Peter, it's a shame, having heard the 13a's I know how good a speaker they are.

Yes indeed - a real bummer. It's a great speaker and one that I truly thought would leave my old speakers for dust. I was initially prepared to go with them as they certainly have many excellent features, but all my music-loving / concert-going visitors found the old speakers (I could switch between them without visitors knowing which they were listening to) sounded better.

Truth is, I was only buying new speakers as my Avantgardes have never sounded as good in my new living room as they did in my London home with a smaller living room and I thought (supported by opinions from ML and other ELS system owners on various forums) that the 13As would be the answer in my difficult room.

Moral of the story - ALWAYS insist on a home trial with loudspeakers, however good they sound in showrooms, audio shows or to equipment reviewers.

Many thanks for everyone's help and encouragement here. Peter