System #55 (Expression 13A's)

[sleepysurf]

Have you thought about upgrading your SBT to a PiCorePlayer? Not much point if your DAC doesn't have USB - but still an upgraded player.

I do plan on building a RasPi streamer down the road, when I have the time. However, I'm still very happy with my Squeezebox Touch (feeding my Bel Canto DAC) and still have a "new in box" Touch as a backup. It's amazing how the Logitech Music Server open-source community (along with Logitech's mherger) keep making this platform even more robust and functional. He just released the latest 8.2 update a week ago. As I type this I'm streaming hi-res tracks from Qobuz, and it sounds superb!

 

[amey01]

I do plan on building a RasPi streamer down the road, when I have the time. However, I'm still very happy with my Squeezebox Touch (feeding my Bel Canto DAC) and still have a "new in box" Touch as a backup. It's amazing how the Logitech Music Server open-source community (along with Logitech's mherger) keep making this platform even more robust and functional. He just released the latest 8.2 update a week ago. As I type this I'm streaming hi-res tracks from Qobuz, and it sounds superb!

Yep, I installed 8.2 a few days ago.

I still can’t believe how ahead of it’s time this whole system was 20 years ago when it was released. What is even more unbelievable is that 20 years later, there is still nothing that even comes close!

 

[James]

How do you like having a centre channel and how do you wire it to a stereo system? I keep thinking it would make dialogue better.

 

[sleepysurf]

How do you like having a centre channel and how do you wire it to a stereo system? I keep thinking it would make dialogue better.

I use a multi-channel receiver (Anthem MRX 740) for TV/Movies, to feed center (and surround) speakers. As expected, TV and movie dialog is substantially better. I'm also currently experimenting with it as my Preamp (via front speaker Pre outs), feeding my CJ amplifier and Expressions, as well as my two BF 210 subs. The bass is definitely better (especially with ARC Genesis for entire system, and ability to "time align" subs with mains), but the tradeoff is a little less tube "breathiness" in the mids. We're having family visiting next couple weeks, so further tweaking on hold for now.

 

[sleepysurf]

Happy New Year to me!

After YEARS of trying to optimally integrate one (or two) BF 210's with my Expressions, I've finally done it! I've always struggled with a major bass null (see below) at my MLP (main listening position). Now, after getting a new (incliner) sofa, I was able to place my two BF 210 subs behind it (as I had with my older setup), and try every conceivable permutation of downloaded sub filters, manual settings, and ARC Genesis correction. What I ultimately ended up with is this...

• Expression 13A’s: Bass -3 dB, Mid-bass +2 dB
• Single BF210 Sub: Located behind sofa/MLP with speaker level connection from my C-J amp, using Exp 13A -10 dB “crossover” filter, ARC optimized, volume control -3.5, and Phase 0°. Second BF210 is used only for home theater, via my Anthem MRX 740.

Green trace shows deep bass null I’ve always had with Expressions alone, even after Anthem Room Correction. Yellow trace shows SINGLE sub with the custom “crossover filter” installed that’s designed to pair with Expressions Bass -10 dB. Blue trace (isolated in 2nd pic) shows combined effect. Bottom pic is full range room measurement, showing no room modes, and relatively equal RT60 reverb across all frequencies.

Of note, when I actually dialed back the Expressions bass the full -10 dB, the summed effect (at MLP) rolled off too much below 30 dB. I then manually adjusted the Expressions bass to achieve the flattest overall response which still sounded good. Next step will be re-running ARC Genesis on my MRX 740 which adds the 2nd sub, ML Motif center, and in-ceiling surrounds. After that, I'll likely "tweak" the Expressions (and single sub) ARC Genesis correction curves manually (in Pro mode), to "tilt" the bass up a bit more.

 

[ttocs]

Nice work!

What measurement app did you use in those screenshots? Looks interesting.

 

[sleepysurf]

I use XTZ Room Analyzer 2 Pro, which is an older product, but still works fine. Unfortunately, I don't think they currently have a U.S. distributor, but it's still sold in Europe... XTZ - Quick Shop & Accessories

REW or Omnimic would do the same thing.

 

[Brad225]

Congrats Alan, I know you have worked on this for a long time.
How is the new sofa different from the previous.

 

[ejspain]

Happy New Year to me!

After YEARS of trying to optimally integrate one (or two) BF 210's with my Expressions, I've finally done it! I've always struggled with a major bass null (see below) at my MLP (main listening position). Now, after getting a new (incliner) sofa, I was able to place my two BF 210 subs behind it (as I had with my older setup), and try every conceivable permutation of downloaded sub filters, manual settings, and ARC Genesis correction. What I ultimately ended up with is this...

• Expression 13A’s: Bass -3 dB, Mid-bass +2 dB
• Single BF210 Sub: Located behind sofa/MLP with speaker level connection from my C-J amp, using Exp 13A -10 dB “crossover” filter, ARC optimized, volume control -3.5, and Phase 0°. Second BF210 is used only for home theater, via my Anthem MRX 740.

Green trace shows deep bass null I’ve always had with Expressions alone, even after Anthem Room Correction. Yellow trace shows SINGLE sub with the custom “crossover filter” installed that’s designed to pair with Expressions Bass -10 dB. Blue trace (isolated in 2nd pic) shows combined effect. Bottom pic is full range room measurement, showing no room modes, and relatively equal RT60 reverb across all frequencies.

Of note, when I actually dialed back the Expressions bass the full -10 dB, the summed effect (at MLP) rolled off too much below 30 dB. I then manually adjusted the Expressions bass to achieve the flattest overall response which still sounded good. Next step will be re-running ARC Genesis on my MRX 740 which adds the 2nd sub, ML Motif center, and in-ceiling surrounds. After that, I'll likely "tweak" the Expressions (and single sub) ARC Genesis correction curves manually (in Pro mode), to "tilt" the bass up a bit more.
View attachment 23733

FANTASTIC WORK!!!! I really need help figuring this s**! out. My Impressions; kind'a still being broken in (150hrs burned) sounded decent before running ARC Genesis. Based on the graphs, the measurement without a doubt cleaned up/flattened out the bass (curve) but also KILLED the bass in my room...I mean COMPLETELY removed the bass. I almost started crying. Turned ARC off on the 11A's and the bass returned so that's where I am until a figure out a miracle.

 

[ttocs]

FANTASTIC WORK!!!! I really need help figuring this s**! out. My Impressions; kind'a still being broken in (150hrs burned) sounded decent before running ARC Genesis. Based on the graphs, the measurement without a doubt cleaned up/flattened out the bass (curve) but also KILLED the bass in my room...I mean COMPLETELY removed the bass. I almost started crying. Turned ARC off on the 11A's and the bass returned so that's where I am until a figure out a miracle.

I've been playing with the settings in the ARC app and finding some good ways to tune to my liking. But here's the catch, I use only one mic location for ARC. I do this because I know Dirac will get further improvement - usually. It's always a try and check sort of thing.

So I'd say, get used to messing with all the settings in the ARC app. I'll be posting some stuff soon to show what I've been playing with.

 

[ejspain]

I've been playing with the settings in the ARC app and finding some good ways to tune to my liking. But here's the catch, I use only one mic location for ARC. I do this because I know Dirac will get further improvement - usually. It's always a try and check sort of thing.

So I'd say, get used to messing with all the settings in the ARC app. I'll be posting some stuff soon to show what I've been playing with.

What is Dirac?

 

[ttocs]

What is Dirac?

Dirac Live is a room correction software app that I can use with my Emotiva processor. It's like what Anthem ARC does with Anthem processors, or Audyssey with other processors.

 

[sleepysurf]

Congrats Alan, I know you have worked on this for a long time.
How is the new sofa different from the previous.

Our old one was a slightly curved "conversation" style, so ample room behind the sofa ends for the subs. The new one is straight, with reclining ends seats that "slide forward" (technically an "incliner"). Fortunately, I was able to squeeze the subs back behind, with decorative pottery on top for WAF! Unfortunately, it has a higher back that extends slightly above my ears, so getting a little bit of sound reflection. Next upgrade might be an audiophile grade booster seat!

 

[ejspain]

Dirac Live is a room correction software app that I can use with my Emotiva processor. It's like what Anthem ARC does with Anthem processors, or Audyssey with other processors.

Gotcha. Do you prefer it over ARC Genesis?

 

[ttocs]

Gotcha. Do you prefer it over ARC Genesis?

Well, for me they are very different apps.

I can only use the ARC for the Martin Logan Expressions up to 300Hz. That's what is built-in to the speakers. My processor can only use Dirac, but is full range.

When I use Dirac only, it's not as good of a result vs if I run ARC on the speakers first. With the ML Masterpiece speakers this is due largely to the fact that they are designed specifically to use ARC to control the opposing woofers in a special way that Dirac just cannot do.

So, because my processor cannot use ARC I have no way to compare ARC full range vs Dirac full range.

Put another way, using "only" ARC (no Dirac) for the Expressions has a much better result than using only Dirac. It's so good that I could be happy with just ARC and no Dirac, and for most of the last 4 years that's exactly how it's been because I've used Reference Stereo mode on my processor while listening to 2 channel music until recently. In the latter half of last year I was using Dirac to correct the Expressions up to about 500Hz. In the last few weeks I've been testing full range again with Dirac, but not totally sold on it yet. But up to around 300-500Hz it works very well with Dirac being able to flatten out the bass and even extend it down further than ARC can do on its own.

edit: I just realized I should explain what "Reference Stereo Mode" is on my processor. It is just the pure audio signal with no correction applied and no bass management. It is solely intended for the Front Left & Right speaker channels setup as LARGE in the processor. It can be assigned to any specific Inputs, or can be chosen on the fly.