Expression 13A Speakers – Predictions Please - and Questions

[twich54]

[Quote from a fellow 13A owner and taken from another thread]

You'll have to let me into the secret of getting the 13As to sound as good as I think they're capable of - and sounding better than the Revels.

Peter, sorry to hear your 13a's aren't up to snuff. As for my listening experience it was through my local dealer who just happens to have some of the finest listening rooms in the country (Overture Audio, Wilmington, De). They were driven by Spectral electronics, source was various sacd and cd's played through .......... I forgot ! Anyways it sounded superb ! FWIW room dimensions were approx 18' wide x 30' long and 10' ceilings. I suspect your room could be a contributing factor as Anthony (asindc) pointed out.

 

[Hear Here]

Peter, sorry to hear your 13a's aren't up to snuff. As for my listening experience it was through my local dealer who just happens to have some of the finest listening rooms in the country (Overture Audio, Wilmington, De). They were driven by Spectral electronics, source was various sacd and cd's played through .......... I forgot ! Anyways it sounded superb ! FWIW room dimensions were approx 18' wide x 30' long and 10' ceilings. I suspect your room could be a contributing factor as Anthony (asindc) pointed out.

Thanks. In fact Anthony suggested a more powerful amplifier for my large room. I went from my most powerful 200 watt GamuT D200 to a 400 watt Sanders Magtech. Although it's improved the sound a little (reducing the screeching on loud crescendos), soloists are seemingly still far further away and still less precisely located compared with my old speakers. Worse though, the MLs sound cool and thin with little richness or depth of sound. Plenty of volume, plenty of bass and plenty of high detail, but decidedly lacking in listening enjoyment.

My most recent change was to place the MLs inside, rather than outside, the AGs, so reducing the distance between the speakers. Not much change unfortunately. I'm still trying to be optimistic and should be meeting the UK distributor here (to change one of the electronics boards) and it'll be most interesting to hear his comments. Otherwise, look out for them on the Used Equipment market! That would really be a last resort, but it's on the cards at present. Peter

 

[ttocs]

Although it's improved the sound a little (reducing the screeching on loud crescendos), soloists are seemingly still far further away and still less precisely located compared with my old speakers.

My most recent change was to place the MLs inside, rather than outside, the AGs, so reducing the distance between the speakers. Not much change unfortunately. I'm still trying to be optimistic and should be meeting the UK distributor here (to change one of the electronics boards) and it'll be most interesting to hear his comments. Peter

Peter, I've discovered that when there is harshness in cymbal crashes, like the very hard cymbal crashes in Billy Cobham's Spectrum album (it's my go-to for this aspect), there's something amiss. In my case going from smaller space to larger space several times with the same speakers meant that I found the need for different amplification, then a preamp to match, speaker cables, and lastly, when faced with the largest space (the current one) I found that an undersized 10Amp power cord was given to me with my purchase of a demo model amp which requires a 15Amp cord. As you know well, the larger spaces allow for much higher volume levels and this is where the deficiencies are exposed.

When I was searching for speaker cables I tried a few a friend had, a couple lent to me from a dealer, and several DIY. I discovered that the design greatly affects upper treble and harshness. I ended up with home center star-quad 14AWD speaker wire twisted together, so each 4-conductor cable is one wire. I found that the capacitance seems to be an issue, not only in speaker cables but also with long XLR interconnects. When my equipment was all located between the speakers, passive biamping with a Y-XLR cable (y'ed at the preamp) wasn't an issue and was an improvement. But when only the amp was near the speakers and everything else was moved away, a 25' long Y-XLR interconnect proved to be too much capacitance and when I cut off the second run making it a single, and cutting the capacitance in half, the harshness I was experiencing went away.

Regarding placement, these speakers are tall enough that, with a little tilt, if you were to move towards them and away you should be able to alter the staging effect.

FWIW, my 13A's have only 20 hours on them since delivered yesterday (yes, I'm playing them 24/7 for a few days) and playing the aforementioned Spectrum album at 98dB reveals no harshness in crashing cymbals. Billy hits those cymbals really hard so that's why I use this album for demo. Also, what little sibilance issue I had with the Vistas, and it was tiny, is gone with the 13A's.

Can your dealer get ahold of a couple of Krell monos? Mine is a multichannel, currently in 3-channel mode so it's 175 watts (not their most powerful at all) at 8 ohms and doubles each step lower in impedance, getting fed a dedicated 20 Amps through an oversized power cord.

The audio system has to be a happy family, no bickering from one member or another.

 

[ttocs]

Just thought of something else. If you do the clap test while at the listening position, do you hear any echo coming from anywhere? Also, same test, how "live" is the listening position? Maybe have someone else claps their hands at the speaker position, walk around the room to hear its effect.

Try cupping your hands around your ears so you mainly get sound from just the speakers. This cuts out most of the reflections from the side and back. Yes, I've done this as a investigative aid. It also gives me super hearing to catch criminals (not).

Lastly, try to hang heavy comforters behind the panels to see if it has an effect. Just to see if it's a reflective issue from the back wave.

 

[peacefulcargo]

I am just contributing lightly as there are folks here who are allot better technically and knowledgeable. I originally owned the CLX and then sold them as I found them a little too bright. That was a big mistake and very costly as I spent maybe 3 years going through various speakers to only go back to buying a pair of CLXs again as they are such a unique speaker in mid-range and sound-field (without sub-woofers) and textured bass. So what was the learnt wisdom from all of this ! I should have looked at my partnering equipment, cables and the fuses being used in the components in the system. I have replaced all my fuses where possible. I think you have a great pair of speakers there - I have to say having owned SL3 and Quests before, ML know what they are doing and treat that as a stable datum and work from there - would be my plan.

 

[Hear Here]

Ttocs and Peacefulcargo - Thanks all for your constructive suggestions and ideas. This is most encouraging.

Your mention of cables, etc has prompted me to concoct a sketch of my 2 systems (Martin Logan and Avantgarde), so you can see that I’m doing all I can to favour the MLs. They have the better interconnects, better and shorter speaker cables, better feet and better power cables.

I hope this works - should be a sketch of my system and a sketch layout of my room at the foot of this post.

UK power cables carry 240 volts so only half the current needed compared with 110V. All my cables are rated at 15Amp and are screened - apart from the ones to the AG subs which are standard mains cables.

I’m currently using Cabledyne Reference Silver speaker cables (now discontinued) but I find I have a pair of SignalCable Ultra Speaker Cables - http://signalcable.com/ultraspeaker.html - which may be more akin to your Quad 4 construction. They are 8 core copper per mono channel and effectively 10AWG. I’ll try them.

Before buying the MLs I asked about the fact they would be a long way forward from the wall behind the speakers and was advised that this would be a good thing, rather than a disadvantage.

Although the speakers are standing on wood flooring (on IsoAcoustic Gaia feet), the floor between the speakers and listening position is carpeted. About 1/3 of the room is carpeted and the clap teat you suggest is pretty acceptable with negligible reverberation. Cupping hands behind ears certainly adds volume and possibly livens up the music a little but I think it does this under any circumstances. I’ve been thinking of getting some EarGlasses so I can listen to louder music at night without turning up the volume and disturbing the neighbours. Just wouldn’t want to be seen wearing them! Hanging heavy material over the back of the panels makes no significant difference to the sound at my listening position, but of course spoils it totally from my dining and kitchen areas which are behind the speakers.

I’ve found that Tidal offers a 96K version of Billy Cobham’s Spectrum and have been playing some of this album. I hear no indication that clipping is occurring, so no undue harshness in the sound. Symbols are crisp and detailed, so I think the Magtech amp has resolved that problem. This was particularly noticeable when playing The Padstow Lifeboat from Reference Recordings’ HDCD album Tutti using other amps. Again the Magtech seems to have resolved that issue.

The UK importer also handles Krell and lots of exotica, so I’ll suggest he brings one of their amps (or his suggestion from another brand) when he visits, hopefully next week. I’m really hoping we can get things right.

Peacefulcargo – whereabouts in England are you? It may be possible to meet up. Peter

View attachment Sketch of System.pdf

View attachment Plan - 112 Living Room.pdf

 

[ttocs]

Peter, you've done quite a lot or work in a short amount of time!

Frankly, if you are getting the great results you mentioned for smooth cymbals etc, I don't think you have an issue with amplification.

 

[ttocs]

Peter, a few questions. If you have a SPL meter, what is the SPL, measured from the listening position, at the threshold where the sound is screeching? (C weighted) Also, are most of the break-in hours while playing music or pink noise? I've been playing music at 90dB levels and a little higher. At night I play Pandora with Brian Eno as the channel so it's mostly very soothing sounds. I know it's easier for me because I don't have neighbors above or below, or through adjacent walls. But I also don't have a great ocean view!

Have you tried the speakers on the stock spikes? Mine are on the spikes with coins under them. I put self stick soft rubber on the floor side of the coin for traction.


edit: Now that my speakers have close to 70 hours on them I'd like to share an observation. With less than 30 hours of 90dB+ music playing I noticed what I would call "shrill" sounding lead guitar (Santana Moonflower and Lotus albums). This would get quite piercing. After about 60 hours this shrill/piercing behavior has almost totally subsided. I'm wondering if this is what you describe as screeching? If so, then maybe it's taking longer to break-in? Since you need to consider your neighbors, maybe your speakers haven't been played as loudly as I've been able to do with mine? Just a thought.

Also, the bass became much more apparent at around 50 hours, so much so that I calibrated to tone it down.

 

[Hear Here]

Peter, a few questions. If you have a SPL meter, what is the SPL, measured from the listening position, at the threshold where the sound is screeching? (C weighted) Also, are most of the break-in hours while playing music or pink noise? I've been playing music at 90dB levels and a little higher. At night I play Pandora with Brian Eno as the channel so it's mostly very soothing sounds. I know it's easier for me because I don't have neighbors above or below, or through adjacent walls. But I also don't have a great ocean view!

Have you tried the speakers on the stock spikes? Mine are on the spikes with coins under them. I put self stick soft rubber on the floor side of the coin for traction.


edit: Now that my speakers have close to 70 hours on them I'd like to share an observation. With less than 30 hours of 90dB+ music playing I noticed what I would call "shrill" sounding lead guitar (Santana Moonflower and Lotus albums). This would get quite piercing. After about 60 hours this shrill/piercing behavior has almost totally subsided. I'm wondering if this is what you describe as screeching? If so, then maybe it's taking longer to break-in? Since you need to consider your neighbors, maybe your speakers haven't been played as loudly as I've been able to do with mine? Just a thought.

Also, the bass became much more apparent at around 50 hours, so much so that I calibrated to tone it down.

Thanks again for your helpful suggestions and observations about your own 13As.

I'm well over the 100 hour mark now and play a wide range of music - including Brian Eno (Drawn from Life and Apollo), plus radio.

Yes, I have a simple un-calibrated Sound Meter app on my phone. I'm seeing a maximum of a bit under 80 dB at my listening position 14 ft away from the speakers, although one particularly difficult (screechy) piece shows significantly less, but this is of cymbals and brass. This is in the Reference Recording of The Padstow Lifeboat on Tutti! at about 2.00 mins. As I mentioned before, this is far less of a problem with the new more powerful Sanders amp. I suspect the lower power ones may have been clipping.

I had the MLs on their soft feet originally but on the Gaias since these arrived, so I've never had them on spikes. It's certainly worth trying, so I'm getting a friend to help me this evening (as the AGs in particular are heavy and awkward) to change their spikes for the Gaias. Then I'll add spikes to the MLs and place them on my 24" x 16" x 1" slate slabs with drilled steel spike shoes - akin to your coins - so their toe-in can still be adjusted.

The bass has never been a problem. I've run ARC and usually have this engaged, but I should perhaps re-run it now the drivers have clocked up more hours. Do you use ARC and what toe-in have you found best? My main concern is still the surprising huge difference in sound, particularly in the richness and fullness of sound that seems to be lacking. The MLs are a bit like Topsy - plenty up top, plenty of bottom and less between. Good for Topsy, but less so for loudspeakers! Switching between speakers playing pink noise, you can't believe it's the same sound source!

I'll report back after the spikes are installed. Thanks again and I'm pleased you are loving your new speakers. Peter

 

[ttocs]

I’ll look for that Tutti piece to give it a go. I was a fan of Eno upon hearing Third Uncle on the radio back in '73 or there abouts. Then to find that he's pals with Fripp and others to whom I listen.

I’ve used SPL apps and have found them to be accurate enough to use in the way we need. It happens to be easier with an actual device, but the apps work just fine. At around 80dB it’ll just take a bit longer for break-in. But cranking it up with some rock here and there would help push things along. Actually, what you might be able to do is to slide the speakers back into the boxes and put some blankets all around the outside of the box and underneath so you could play them louder for a while.

I’m a big fan of Gaia feet! I have the pucks for my amp which sits on the floor. I don’t hear any difference, but at least I have some assurance that floor related vibrations are lessened. It’ll be interesting to hear from you if there is a difference going to the spikes.

I’m using ARC, the bass is much better controlled. The toe right now is at about 1/3. The speakers are about 3 meters apart and I’m now sitting about 3.2 meters away.

I found that the speakers were brighter out of the box and are now much sweeter and smoother.

 

[ttocs]

FYI
I just found out the date code built into the serial number on our speakers. Mine end with L01, which means: L=2019, 01=January.

For those with inquiring minds . . .

 

[Hear Here]

FYI
I just found out the date code built into the serial number on our speakers. Mine end with L01, which means: L=2019, 01=January.

For those with inquiring minds . . .

Interesting. Mine have Serial Numbers ending K12 so presumably December 2018.

 

[ttocs]

That's the way I would read it.

ML told me these speakers are made to order or there might be shallow stock on hand. This means that most of the speakers are 1-2 months old or less at time of sale. I got mine in 4 days because they happened to be in stock and mine are probably a more popular color - gloss black, to match my subs which are now only used for center and satellites and LFE.

Also, just thought I'd share my phone app SPL meter which happens to measure the same as my handheld SPL meter.


This screen shot was taken a few minutes ago when I was having some fun cranking the volume while playing Allman Brothers At The Fillmore East "In Memory Of Elizabeth Reed".


edit: Wow Peter! The Padstow Lifeboat on the Tutti! Orchestral Sampler is vastly different, better, than the other versions I found while searching! The quality is far superior, and the bass is amazing.

I now understand where harshness, or screeching, could occur due to the complex assortment of sounds during the crescendos. I found it on Tidal and the quality is so good I kept it going. Great find, thanks!

On my system however I didn’t experience any screeching or harshness, although it's not perfect yet. I’m currently at about 90 hours on the speakers and as I write this, Escales: Valencia is just finishing and peaked at 104dB! I’m not well versed in symphonic music, even though I wake up every morning with the alarm set to the Chicago symphonic radio station, and I’ve wandered about in searching here and there but haven’t previously found anything as great as this. The dynamics are fantastic!

 

[Hear Here]

That's the way I would read it.

ML told me these speakers are made to order or there might be shallow stock on hand. This means that most of the speakers are 1-2 months old or less at time of sale. I got mine in 4 days because they happened to be in stock and mine are probably a more popular color - gloss black, to match my subs which are now only used for center and satellites and LFE.

edit: Wow Peter! The Padstow Lifeboat on the Tutti! Orchestral Sampler is vastly different, better, than the other versions I found while searching! The quality is far superior, and the bass is amazing.

I now understand where harshness, or screeching, could occur due to the complex assortment of sounds during the crescendos. I found it on Tidal and the quality is so good I kept it going. Great find, thanks!

Mine are gloss black too - stunning finish - ordered in early December and delivered early January after a long sea (I presume) voyage.

I've had that Titti! album for years. It's one that you often see mentioned by reviewers, but (if I remember correctly) it was also one of Jim Smith's excellent list of 100 top quality CDs when he was distributing Avantgarde in US. Another much admired but older (1985-6) CD with a selection of classical favourites is The Slokowski Sound. This has a few tracks that may test your meter.

For more frivolous listening (and all new to me) but still with OTT sound levels, so good for breaking in and testing speakers are CDs by Meghan Trainor (Title), Ruelle (Madness), Ariana Grande (Sweetener - in MQA), and Yello (Toy) - although maybe not for everyday listening!

I now have my 13As on spikes and will give them serious listening in the next couple of days. Peter

 

[ttocs]

I sent IsoAcoustics a question about what the maximum tilt would be for the Gaia II feet. Since the 13A has a 5 degree tilt adjustment, I asked if this would be within spec for their feet.

This is the response:
"Hi Scott, The GAIA's do have some height adjustment, but it would not be as much as 5 degrees. The height adjustment is mainly intended to be used to account for any uneven flooring, but it's often also used for tilt adjustment and it has no negative impact on the performance. I estimate you can adjust the height of the GAIA's by approximately 3/8" (depending on the speaker)."

So, I read this as saying since the estimate of 5 degrees is too much, maybe 3 degrees is ok?? Not sure, but it would seem that too much tilt on the feet degrades their performance, they get pinched, bound up, stuck. I'm going to see how much tilt adjustment gets the panel to absolute vertical just for fun. I had mine set to the maximum vertical the spikes would allow, front spikes in all the way and the back spikes out as much as they would go, then last night I laid back the panel a little to adjust for staging and got an improvement.

 

[RDC]

I've tilted my Montis with the GAIA's to the max. The outer casing does not touch the inner rubber ring/feet in my case. My feeling is that if there is no mechanical contact, it would still be okay.

 

[Hear Here]

I sent IsoAcoustics a question about what the maximum tilt would be for the Gaia II feet. Since the 13A has a 5 degree tilt adjustment, I asked if this would be within spec for their feet.

This is the response:
"Hi Scott, The GAIA's do have some height adjustment, but it would not be as much as 5 degrees. The height adjustment is mainly intended to be used to account for any uneven flooring, but it's often also used for tilt adjustment and it has no negative impact on the performance. I estimate you can adjust the height of the GAIA's by approximately 3/8" (depending on the speaker)."

So, I read this as saying since the estimate of 5 degrees is too much, maybe 3 degrees is ok?? Not sure, but it would seem that too much tilt on the feet degrades their performance, they get pinched, bound up, stuck. I'm going to see how much tilt adjustment gets the panel to absolute vertical just for fun. I had mine set to the maximum vertical the spikes would allow, front spikes in all the way and the back spikes out as much as they would go, then last night I laid back the panel a little to adjust for staging and got an improvement.

When I had my 13As on order, I bought a set of Gaia II feet together with 3/8" threads.

The 13A (and 11A and 15A) have an electronics board that is removable by first removing the sockets that spikes / Gaias are screwed into. These have the threaded part starting well into the sockets to allow a 1/2" Allan key to be used to remove the sockets. This means that the standard-length Gaia threads are hardly long enough to be securely fitted even with no tilt adjustment. In fact, using the two nuts that are required to fit them with the logo facing forwards, you cannot get them securely fitted.

I raised this with IsoAcoustic's Sean who was unaware that these ML speaker have deeply recessed spike sockets, but at my suggestion he ordered in some much longer 3/8" threads specially for this range of ML speakers. These have 53mm of thread length in total so can be fitted securely at the front fully screwed in and with up to about 3/4" / 20 mm extra at the back to reduce the tilt to about 2-3 degrees.

I suggest you contact Sean - I'm sure he will supply you with these long threads. Note that these long threads would not be suitable on other ML speakers except for the back sockets if you wanted to raise the cabinet to reduce the tilt. Hope this helps. Peter

 

[ttocs]

Sean is very communicative and helpful, all my info came from him. Currently my panels are at 2.75 degree tilt, 1/3 toe, 42-1/2" (108cm) from wall measured to center/top of panel. Panel tilt was 4 degrees - the most I could get with the length of the spikes provided, staging improved laying them back to 2.75 degrees. Bringing them away from the wall more helped staging also, they were at 37" (94cm). They're over 100 hours now, not gonna keep track anymore, just want to have fun.

I'm dying to know if you experienced a difference on the spikes vs GAIA?? I'm thinking that separating the speakers from my 64 year old timber floor would be a good idea and the GAIA feet seem the way to go. They also look great. Thanks for the heads up on needing the longer threaded pieces!

Also, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on how tilt affects the sound in your room with no walls near the speakers.

edit: Not 4 degrees, tilt was 1 degree from vertical. Dyslexia strikes again. The base tilt was 4 degrees.

 

[Hear Here]

Sean is very communicative and helpful, all my info came from him. Currently my panels are at 2.75 degree tilt, 1/3 toe, 42-1/2" (108cm) from wall measured to center/top of panel. Panel tilt was 4 degrees - the most I could get with the length of the spikes provided, staging improved laying them back to 2.75 degrees. Bringing them away from the wall more helped staging also, they were at 37" (94cm). They're over 100 hours now, not gonna keep track anymore, just want to have fun.

I'm dying to know if you experienced a difference on the spikes vs GAIA?? I'm thinking that separating the speakers from my 64 year old timber floor would be a good idea and the GAIA feet seem the way to go. They also look great. Thanks for the heads up on needing the longer threaded pieces!

Also, I'd be interested to know your thoughts on how tilt affects the sound in your room with no walls near the speakers.

It took 2 of us 90 minutes to replace the spikes on the Avantgardes with Gaias and to install the spikes in the MLs in place of the Gaias - taking care not to stab the floor or our hands and to stand the MLs on the slate slabs. Now, as for the sound, it has made a marginal difference though we were hard pressed to say that spikes were an improvement. In fact, I think I'd say that the Gaias are the better solution.

I have the tilt significantly reduced. Using a 24" level the tilt is almost exactly 1 in 24. OK - 2.4 degrees from vertical according to an online calculator, so very similar to yours. They certainly sound better with around this angle of tilt compared with the default. I'm currently toeing in the recommended 1/3 which seems the best compromise, although the sweet spot is extremely narrow - move your heard 6" either way and you lose a lot. The AGs have more toe-in but they're different beasts altogether.

I'll be visiting the Bristol Hi-Fi Show tomorrow (driving down with a keen Quad owner) but it's rather more mid-fi than hi-fi, so nothing like the Las Vegas CES Shows I used to visit. However it will be interesting to see what's new and to meet with a few old faces.

I suspect there'll be a live comparison of a pair of speakers on standard spikes with an identical pair on Gaias at the show. Peter

 

[ttocs]

Thanks Peter.

I've been able to "block" up my speakers by using ancient Egyptian technology. Leverage and center of gravity come into play. I tilt the speaker sideways and insert cork hot pads (Ikea) under the raised metal frame, then repeat for alternating sides until it's above the floor enough to work underneath. Kind of like raising a car on a lift. Books would work as well.

Frankly, I wasn't sure what to expect with GAIA vs spikes in your situation due to concrete (I assume) floor construction vs mine which is squeaky wood where GAIA would most likely be an improvement.

I'll be playing with toe this week. When I heard the 13A at the dealer the sweet spot was much larger so I want to figure out what adjustments allow for this. I may need to go do some measurements to aid in discovery.

Also, I have absolute minimum absorption at the moment, only on the front wall first reflection. I'll be adding back the panels I had on the side and back walls as needed.

edit: When moving the speakers more than a few millimeters, I simply tilt the speaker over and put two glossy type junk mail adverts under each foot and the speaker will now glide across the floor like it's on teflon. My spikes are on floor protector discs.