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Not too many photos to show - but this is the graph from my initial calibration. Nice. Excellent sound.
From timing perspective - Group Delay below 20ms across the board, resulting in dynamics, that I have never experienced before - bass/drums are really on "live" level in terms of missing any compression.

1692882650342.png
 
Not too many photos to show - but this is the graph from my initial calibration. Nice. Excellent sound.
From timing perspective - Group Delay below 20ms across the board, resulting in dynamics, that I have never experienced before - bass/drums are really on "live" level in terms of missing any compression.

View attachment 24514
So this is the "measured" response, correct? Not a predicted response?

Yeah, if you can get a measured response like this and group delay below 20 and keep the dynamics at the same time (unike when I really, really tried with MSO but failed, looked great but sounded awful), you're a lucky dog!
 
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So this is the "measured" response, correct? Not a predicted response?

Yeah, if you can get a measured response like this and group delay below 20 and keep the dynamics at the same time (unike when I really, really tried with MSO but failed, looked great but sounded awful), you're a luck dog!
yes, this is kind of predicted response from Trinnov, but it matches very well with REW measurements [will post some REW stuff]

MSO - I had the same experience, I could hear how subs work against each other, if it makes any sense.

My current routine [works for 4 subs max, as this is Trinnov limit - you can create one virtual 4 way speaker max], so I have 2 virtual subs, consisting of 4 subs each.

1) measure subs in REW, create EQ - filters - just cuts - in my case modes at 28 and 65Hz to even response out, no boosts, enter into TRINNOV and re-measure
2) run MSO - but ONLY with delay blocks, no gain or PEQ - get some improvement [limit 7ms]
3) enter delays into Trinnov
4) run global EQ for all 4 subs combined

Works well, no idea if this is specific to TRinnov, I think you can do it with Flex or 2x4HD too.
 
You are an expert willing to share what you know humbly. I am making a point of having a setting made for Auro 3D to see what it is you have discovered. I finally will have my subs in phase. Even JonFo, another member in high standing with me says he has an interest to buy one eventually.
This is how the back of my unit is connected. I use 3 Oktos, but only 2 are for Dacs. The other is to hookup a computer to to the Trinnov.
 

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  • 2023-09-07 rear masterback panel MLO.jpg
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So after calibrator finished his work - need to say just WOW
I have seen lot of good measuring and sounding stuff but never heard such punch and clarity in bass section.
Group delay never going above 20ms .....

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Spectrgram of ML15as with subs crossed at 80Hz

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Rear wall - 4x18 in. LOL. Finished with subs for now - 8x18in, 20.000W in total.
Calibrator is at work now - WITHOUT EQ +-2.5dB 15-120Hz .

View attachment 24610
I cant remember, but are you the member that had the custom subs built using the same Italian woofers that Power Sound Audio uses? Those are 18 inchers? Ive got just one of their 21 inch subs and its incredible. Your room must come alive!
 
That is an amazing result well worth your successful effort. Can you please tell us more about it? Did it meet your expectations?
 
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I’ll post more - but this is our weekend program, trying to herd dozen of flat coated retrievers. Hunting dogs certification preparation.

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First things first - this is my bed plane at "raw" state - after phase delay and SPL adjustents - no fancy target curves or whatever applied. Interesting thing - both L-R speakers needed to be inverted in order to get proper alignment with sub array

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almost perfect L-R RT60 symmetry and eveneness. This is one of the most important parameters to look at re imaging and soundstage [together with ETC]

1697392751061.png


Now to my BASS Setup - it is variant of Double Bass Array - setup, that is quite popular in Germany - basically you should place 4 subs on front wall as near to ideal 1/4 3/4 grid in both vertical an horizontal plane. This should take care for most of the modes. Trick is, to put ANOTHER 4 subs in the same confguration on the back wall - do some math re volumes and delays and invert the phase - rear subs then act as active absorbers.
Works very well in rectangular rooms, mine is a rhomboid, so I am at 80% of potential.

But the result is still phenomenal - everything people hope to get from MSO + dynamics and Headroom - in my current setup I have approx 35dB headroom vs Reference level. Also working with one global EQ at th end of teh process helps a lot.

I would recommend this to everybody, building dedicated HT - I have heard some great subs in HT;s - 4 subs in corners, Geddes, Velti, MSO even Harman custom setup. But this is still level above. Not fancy overblown bass around 40Hz, but really punchy textured, unlocalizable dynamic.

From HW perspective - it requires ability to steer each sub individually [can be something like 2x8 from MiniDsp or then high-end AVP's like Trinnov or Storm. ANd 8 subs, that need to be as near to the wall as possble [mine are 30cm deep]

Drivers are Italian made, same s PSA is using for their subs. I ended up wiht 18in, 21 in would be an overkill and woould require more compromises, than I was willing to make. 12Hz and 130dB is good enough for me.
 
35dB is an incredible dynamic range to achieve. When combined with all the detail a large Martin Logan panel can give it must be incredible. Did you make the subwoofers virtual subs like you posted earlier, before your 18in woofers were implemented?
I am wondering how you determined that the 18in woofer speaker is appropriate for your room instead of the 21. Is this something I can hire someone to do for me in USA?
 
35dB is an incredible dynamic range to achieve. When combined with all the detail a large Martin Logan panel can give it must be incredible. Did you make the subwoofers virtual subs like you posted earlier, before your 18in woofers were implemented?
I am wondering how you determined that the 18in woofer speaker is appropriate for your room instead of the 21. Is this something I can hire someone to do for me in USA?

Yes, all 8 subs are set-up as one virtual sub and everything is crossed over at 80Hz, incl 15A's.
Height layer [motion 15] is crossed over at 100Hz.


18 vs 21 in - it was very much cost/benefit and space constraints.
I would need min 200L internal volume for 21in, and it woudl drive size of the sub and limit potential optimal placement - as you can see from the pics, it is pretty tight there already with all the room treatments. And as I have nice room gain below 20Hz, I would gain maybe 1Hz on extra FR extension. So just practical considerations.
 
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Rear wall - 4x18 in. LOL. Finished with subs for now - 8x18in, 20.000W in total.
Calibrator is at work now - WITHOUT EQ +-2.5dB 15-120Hz .

View attachment 24610
So the front wall has the same setup for the 18 inch subs? Can you show a picture so we can see how you did that? I'm wondering where you place all of those speakers and still have room for a large screen. Did you end up using a sound transparent screen with some speakers behind it?
 
Front Subs - 120in screen, 45cm [1.5ft] from the floor. It looks tiny, but it offers more than THX viewing angle from 3.8m viewing distance

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Wow, everything fit nicely! I can see how 21 inch subs wouldn't fit that way.

Re-posting the picture without grilles - you see, I needed to have drivers placed asymmetricaly to be as near to this magical 1/4 - 3/4 grid and not interfere with Fronts placement. So all calculated in advance. It was about centimeters to fit it in.

In my discussions with the guys producing the subs - actuall 18in is considered to be sweet spot for small to middle room. 21in for mid to large rooms.

Or you can go another route - they are now making high end installation, where depth of the sub is limiting factor - so the go with 32 [thirty-two] 10.5in subs .... . It will not go that deep, but SPL will be unlimited.
1697613076777.png
 
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