Expression 13A, Source, Motion series Atmos tops and sides

[Fidji99]

you may be underestimating the BF 212. they are a significant step up from 1600's. they have immense power and linearity. they aren't dipoles, but opposed force, like a Boxter engine. hence their term Balanced Force. the absence of the slightest cabinet vibration is stunning. there's a lot of hype and over specing in the subwoofer field. I have a lot of experience with these, and they are hard to beat.

BF’s are great for sure, for their intended use, and one of the few good looking subs

I am now going into Double Bass Array setup with 8 subs. Simulated in room 12Hz at 122 dB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass_arrayand there I can not use sub with 2 opposing woofers.

 

[Fidji99]

what kind of drapes are you using on the side walls.

Something normal - heavier sort, with blackout back. I think from IKEA.

 

[Davioj]

Something normal - heavier sort, with blackout back. I think from IKEA.

thankx

 

[sleepysurf]

you may be underestimating the BF 212. they are a significant step up from 1600's. they have immense power and linearity. they aren't dipoles, but opposed force, like a Boxter engine. hence their term Balanced Force. the absence of the slightest cabinet vibration is stunning. there's a lot of hype and over specing in the subwoofer field. I have a lot of experience with these, and they are hard to beat.

For those not familiar, Dennis Chern was formerly the Eastern Sales Manager for ML, but I believe he's now retired. Nice to see him posting here. Looking forward to hearing his perspectives as a former ML insider!

 

[Duke]

Lot of pink noise and some REW sweeps coming out of my HT in last days. Not day and night but still some improvements:

1) After some experiminenting with REW and MSO, I think I have sweet spot on Bass Management and EQ, using Trinnov to almost full extent. [I use 2xMiniDsp Flex as basically external DACs in 2xSPDIF in 4 CH out] [trinnov lets you use 4 channels of Digital out, lot of people connect their audiophile DACs]

Individual sub measurements with REW imported to MSO [level matched subs] for front 4, then run using only delay block and All-Pass Filter [2 per sub], APF loaded into MiniDsp, Delay adjusted manually into Trinnov and calibrated all 4 subs as "4way speaker". This resulted in getting approx 7dB extra headroom compared to traditional MSO approach [now running ech front sub at -15dB gain to get to combined 85dB with another 20dB digital headroom], very good FR and Group Delay best I have ever seen. Result being punchy, clean, fast [or whatever you call it] with lots od air being moved by 4 subs in front ad 2 subs behind MLP.

After lot of experimenting and A/B-ing I have settled at Single Bass Array up front [4 subs, handled as 1 sub]] and 2 subs in rear corners. Beauty of it all, is that I can manage each sub individually- e.g. I can assign subs into groups up to 4 and also system can consider any speaker being a sub and redirect any bass signal from any speaker. [nobody does it, but you still can]

I think 90% can be done achieved also with MiniDsp, but still. more subs I incorporate into my setup, more I can appreciate the flexibility of trinnov.

View attachment 24149

2) Individual Excursion Limiter - ideal for somebody like me, with different speakers for LCR and rest. Now I can limit each speaker individually and not allowing any correction outside of distortion free zone [eg I allow any correction for Motions 35 to start only at 70Hz] and do limit corrections in treble.

Before - i had one excursion limiter for all speakers.

You can hear it in movies, in big scenes - slightly cleaner sound and overall cohesiveness of the soundstage.

View attachment 24148

3) pre-ringing reduction - yes, you can hear it on classical music, if you concentrate.
4) Bass Management- is just optimized phase between mains and subs. Something I have done manually before.

Overall 3&4 are more changes that allow for more automated handling vs manual setting. Layman can get nearer to pro.

Hi, this is Duke. Regarding what you wrote above: "After some experiminenting with REW and MSO, I think I have sweet spot on Bass Management and EQ, using Trinnov to almost full extent. [I use 2xMiniDsp Flex as basically external DACs in 2xSPDIF in 4 CH out] [trinnov lets you use 4 channels of Digital out, lot of people connect their audiophile DACs]"
I am considering adding the Prague Okto Research stereo and Okto multi channel because they use the same ESS dac. Are you stating that the most Dac channels that can be used within the newest 2023 Trinnov Altitude 32 is four? I am only asking for clarity. If that is the case, I would buy another Okto stereo and use the 8 channel in a different system.

 

[Fidji99]

Hi, this is Duke. Regarding what you wrote above: "After some experiminenting with REW and MSO, I think I have sweet spot on Bass Management and EQ, using Trinnov to almost full extent. [I use 2xMiniDsp Flex as basically external DACs in 2xSPDIF in 4 CH out] [trinnov lets you use 4 channels of Digital out, lot of people connect their audiophile DACs]"
I am considering adding the Prague Okto Research stereo and Okto multi channel because they use the same ESS dac. Are you stating that the most Dac channels that can be used within the newest 2023 Trinnov Altitude 32 is four? I am only asking for clarity. If that is the case, I would buy another Okto stereo and use the 8 channel in a different system.

Hi,

it is bit more complex [like everything with Trinnov] and you have basically 3 options, how to get digital out

1) red marking - use DB25 digisnake and have up to 16 digital channels [people use it mostly for active speakers with digital in], this can be set-up in Sources menu. This disables +4 option

In my case I was referring to "+4" option, that you can set-up in Preset
a) I use 2x Flex [one time conencted via S/PDIF and another one by Toslink to have basically 32+4 variant [32 analogue+4 digital] [most of the folks use it for subs or MiniDsp to save channels and create subs arrays. By using 2x MiniDsP you can hook up to 8 subs [then combine them into 1 sub array via Active Xover]

b) if you turn +4 OFF - CH1&2 gets copied into blue marked digital outs and there is where most people hook their precious dCS, etc DAC's. to serve their Stereo Presets.

So long story short - if you want to, you can use 8CH of OktoDac. Actually this topic quite regularly pops up on https://www.avsforum.com/threads/trinnov-altitude.1516103/page-1268#post-62679566 and there are lot of knowledgeable guys there to answer specific questions.

Re OktoDac - they ware notorious for having endless waiting times for their product - did it improve meanwhile?

 

[Duke]

You are a gentleman. Thank you for your time spent on me. I am so happy that I am writing back before checking on what I have to do. I appreciate you gave me a path to start with.

I will try to find a way to utilize the db25. If not, I can use the S/pdif and AES/EBU for the four main channels. I have two pair of identical Martin Logan speakers for left and right, main and sides. It is my hope to get the benefit of so much Martin Logan panel by having the four speakers melded together as left and right mains using Trinnov for two channel music listening as an experiment. I am waiting for a visit from the calibrator as I am not capable of doing that myself.
There was a wait for Okto. I posted to be in their queue. I chose the Okto due to their choice of ESS 9028PRO which is ESS similar to the Trinnov. I chose Okto by reading about the product in posts on a few forums. I posted my contact information to Okto and when they had inventory, I purchased one of each. That went very smoothly using FedEx. They recently had a firmware update, so they contacted their customers about it. I appreciated that. I will have to check on the connectivity of these two Okto.
I was considering using another dac like the Musetek which uses the 9038PRO.

I hope to return the favor of advice one day.

 

[Fidji99]

Opinion needed - I have opportunity to get 15A on a good deal (upgrade from 13A)

room - 30 sqm and listening distance 2.8m - panels 125 cm from front wall. Speakers distance mid panels 2.4m
Enter 15a - I want to place bit nearer to front wall at approx 100cm

Questions:
a) does it even make sense to upgrade? (i would be having almost new vs 6 years old speakers, so couple of years worth of easy sleep) Is 15a significantly better in mid/treble? ( i have no chance to listen side by side) - do not care about bass, this I sort out with subs anyway)
b) placement - i know it is kind of on the edge for what ML recommends, would it be an issue?

thanks for your opinions.

 

[Dennis Chern]

Opinion needed - I have opportunity to get 15A on a good deal (upgrade from 13A)

room - 30 sqm and listening distance 2.8m - panels 125 cm from front wall. Speakers distance mid panels 2.4m
Enter 15a - I want to place bit nearer to front wall at approx 100cm

Questions:
a) does it even make sense to upgrade? (i would be having almost new vs 6 years old speakers, so couple of years worth of easy sleep) Is 15a significantly better in mid/treble? ( i have no chance to listen side by side) - do not care about bass, this I sort out with subs anyway)
b) placement - i know it is kind of on the edge for what ML recommends, would it be an issue?

thanks for your opinions.

I'm too lazy to covert metric to privative. can you do so. i have experience with dif. in 13 and 15 and might be able to help

 

[Fidji99]

2.8m 9ft 4 in
2.4m 8ft

125cm 4ft 2 in
30sqm 322 sqft
ceiling 3m 10ft

 

[Duke]

I like bigger panels. The bigger the better.

 

[Robert D]

I like bigger panels. The bigger the better.

That's what she said.

 

[Russr]

That's what she said.

Whoa there, tiger.... aren't you still rahab'ing?!

 

[Leporello]

I'm too lazy to covert metric to privative. can you do so. i have experience with dif. in 13 and 15 and might be able to help

For heaven's sake, your smart phone can divide by 2.54.

 

[Leporello]

For those not familiar, Dennis Chern was formerly the Eastern Sales Manager for ML, but I believe he's now retired. Nice to see him posting here. Looking forward to hearing his perspectives as a former ML insider!

I had many enlightening chats with him at the New York Audio Show.

 

[Fidji99]

too late for any advice now ;-) , will need to live with 15A's somehow ... , downpayment paid

State of my room

and this is how special sub to accommodate Trinnov Waveforning looks like 18 in, passive, sealed with complementing 2400W amp

 

[Fidji99]

Almost there .... [screen is 122 in, subs 18in, for scale]

 

[ttocs]

I like the corner/angled subs! Reduced SBIR?

But, those are not OSHA approved steel toed socks mister!!

 

[Fidji99]

I like the corner/angled subs! Reduced SBIR?

But, those are not OSHA approved steel toed socks mister!!

Actually I have UST projector and it was the only way to get sub squeezed under the screen.,This is how UST is behaving - I needed this 45 deg angle to make it work.

BTW - drivers are comimg from the same company, that delivers to PSA.

 

[Robert D]

Actually I have UST projector and it was the only way to get sub squeezed under the screen.,This is how UST is behaving - I needed this 45 deg angle to make it work.

BTW - drivers are comimg from the same company, that delivers to PSA.

View attachment 24492

That company makes good drivers. The 21 inch I have sounds nice.