Expression 13A, Source, Motion series Atmos tops and sides

[Fidji99]

Time for some update [ @Reverb @JonFo - maybe time to move my thread to "adults" part of the forum, but I am also happy to be still considered newbie]

1) Acoustics - somehow I believe I am where I need to be - thanks to 2 major changes - I have darkened the windows with film, I could remove 1 layer of curtains and I have moved from absorber panels in the first reflection points [front/side/rear wall] to combined diffusion/absorption cylindrical panels [approx 1/3 of absorption of normal panel + quite broad diffusion, frequency wise]. Added couple of light diffusion plates on corner bass traps.

REW measurements show now much more even reverb time across critical frequencies [before I had a "hole" between 500-1000Hz, where RT60 was by 0.05s shorter, now all good and also L-R symmetry. Couple of pictures. Optimized primarily for Stereo.

2) Hardware - moved to 9.5.6, adding Motion 15 as FW and 2x Motion 4 + Dynamo 1100 - all good. now front looks like this.

3) Live with TRINNOV - just awesome - once you learn some of the tricks, learn how to measure properly, it takes it all to completely different level. On top you have their excellent customer support, where they took my measurements/presets and adjusted couple of settings in "do not touch, unless you really know what your doing" section, this brought the overall Stereo and MCH sound another notch higher. E.g. using crossover HPF/LPF and slopes asymmetrically for some speakers, they got all the Bass Management crossover regions in-phase and this is really audible. E.g now my Dynamo 800 is used as woofer, dedicated just to C channel without any LFE duty and this already make a lot of difference in L-C-R sound coherency.

On top - with TRINNOV being fine up to 6V, I could lower the gain on power amps to 20dB and this brings another small piece of calmness and transparency.

I had regional distributor of ML delivering those speakers to my place, so we spent 2 hours listening to both music and some movie material - and his statement was - "it does not get much better". Stereo is now really shining - sweet, detailed, spacious, holographic with no hint of any digital harshness [this is what speakers being in-phase in every frequency brings you] + 5 subs crossed at 60Hz and optimized as one sub. Re-discovered my love for music again, listening to all the old stuff again and again.

4) What next - I think I owe it to the rest of the chain - I have placed order yesterday - Height speakers - I will go from Motion 4i's to Motion 15's. 4's - nice as they are, you just can not overcome laws of physics - 4in woofer will not have SPL and FR that you need for higher end application [I need to cross them over at 110Hz, which is borderline] and Surrounds/Front Wides I will move to Motion 35's [upgrading from Motion 8& Motion 15]

And now comes the real conundrum - what to do with spare channels ;-). Makes no sense to go above 9 bed plane speakers, so all good here. My options are - I take back Motion 50 C and use it as Center Height creating 9.x.7 or add some extra sub/subs or go for 9.x.8 and add Atmos Front Tops.
Life was much easier with 5.1.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Good stuff mate! Well done on the room and specifically designed for HT and 2ch music.
I always tend to forget how well designed those Expression 13A's are, give them plenty of space and matching quality in gear, and they will perform supremely well!

The Summit-X were really good, until the new Masterpiece line came out, it was pretty much a paradigm shift, both in terms of stat performance and LF detail. I found that the bass drivers aligned in this proprietary B-F way provides extended bass lines, with greater clarity and layering. Not just a thump. Also makes music far more believable.

Looks like there's been a lot of effort put into this project and dedicated room, well worth the effort. Also agree on the Artnovion acoustic panels, they're outstanding! Pricey though but they do a marvellous job! I think they're made in Prague...

Cheers, and keep those fine tunes playing!
RJ

 

[Duke]

Does your Trinnov have HDMI 2.1 yet? If not, what is the procedure in Europe to get it installed at a later date?

 

[Fidji99]

Does your Trinnov have HDMI 2.1 yet? If not, what is the procedure in Europe to get it installed at a later date?

No, I have 2.0 still [bought it just before the latest price hike in June 22]. I have upgraded DAC board and it was pretty straight forward, while drinking some coffee at the dealership [but it is 30 min drive for me].

I assume HDMI and extension board will be the same process. No idea about current availability though.

 

[Duke]

Thank you for your time.

 

[Fidji99]

So, finalized my setup this weekend - final 9.6.7 in 32 sqm, will add some photos tomorrow. Need to say it sounds really amazing, compered to heights based on Motion 4i. I think I am done for now. I jut need to clean up this endless mess, that are my cables.

I have created one Sub Array in Front - see picture - and now it really has a oomph to the movies, but also headroom and punch for music.
800x is used as dedicated sub for C, and only Sub array is on LFE duty. then I have L and R Surround/Height areas with one dedicated sub each

Side to side comparison of Motion 4i, 15i and 35XTi, 35's are aready quite big pieces of furniture

And now front side with 4 subs - 1600x are both at -9dB gain , 1100x at -6dB gain, so that I get to reference calibration level of 80dB, combined with room gain I end at -3dB at 16Hz.

and back wall with newly installed Motion 15is

 

[Fidji99]

Bit of changes: Sources replaced by Motion 35i's one 1100X added and 2x 1600x ordered as replacement for 2x1100, so "final" setup will be 4x 1600+ 3x 1100 + 1x 800x. I have worked a bit on the acoustics side - and now I think I am where I need to be - side walls are treated by cylindric absorbers - approx. 1/3 rd of absorption of normal absorber, and balanced diffusion as from 600Hz. They are very much recommended for dipoles, and I can only confirm that.

For REW folks - before and after, and second graph is L&R - almost identical. All other measurements [ETC, Spectrogram] look also much better now.

Couple of photos - front end

 

[Fidji99]

Rear and side wall [in different moments] - on the upper picture you can see 2 diffusion plate added on corner bass traps.
As some say - "IT IS ALWAYS THE ROOM" - and they are right.

Now I can start to tidy things up - appropriate cabling [Mogami], putting all the subs on Isoacoustics Gaias, changing 8 XLR runs into one DB25 multichannel cable for rear part of the setup. Kimber cable for speakers. Probably no impact on SQ, but it will look much nicer.

I started to talk to some pros in the area, how to re-do the room [proper paint color also on the sides and ceiling]

 

[Fidji99]

And last but not least - waiting for THIS, had a chance to hear it in Barcelona. And it is completely different league to whatever I had chance to witness before - 0.1s decay time all over the bass FR - best way to describe - all the energy that you feel for 0.5-0.7s concentrated into 1 snap of 0.1s punch. Japanese sword compared to hammer. Physical experience. For those that know how gunshots sound in real life vs HT - this was real life.

[BTW - it works with 4 subs already, if you do not have more rows, for 2 rows and riser you need 6 minimum] - but it requires a LOT of power. Balanced Force type of subs are not best suited. I assume I will end up with 8 x 1600X at some point of time.



Funny, how 16 or 20 channels are now considered "bare minimum" Good old 5.1 times ;-).

 

[Fidji99]

Another interesting update from Trinnov, looking forward to individual excursion curve [limiting the corrections that system is allowed to do] and also really curious about pre-ringing [as I have done some experimenting with advanced settings already].

I think they have really woken up, as they see that Dirac is not sleeping either, happy times.

https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/pos...jor-software-update-to-the-altitude-platform/

• Strengthens calibrations by improving rejection of ambient noise
• Improves delay alignment of subwoofers through Bass Management
• Enhances the Excursion Curve function and enables separate curves for each speaker
• Provides users with a set of optional predefined target curves
• Adds an option to reduce Pre-Ringing of FIR filters
• Improves the calibration of Active Crossovers

ADAPTIVE PRE-EMPHASIS FOR CALIBRATIONS​

One of the issues facing accurate audio calibrations is combating the signal-to-noise ratio (technically crest factor) inside a room. This is particularly true regarding low-frequency measurements where often inaudible noise, such as an HVAC unit or even outside traffic noise, can corrupt the calibration.
To correct this potential problem and achieve more robust and reliable measurements, 4.3.1 adds a new feature called Adaptive Pre-emphasis.
By measuring the room’s noise floor and making rapid computational adjustments, Adaptive Pre-emphasis rejects the background noise measured during the calibration.

EXCURSION CURVE ENHANCEMENTS​

The Altitude’s Excursion Curve feature determines the maximum amount of boost and cut the Optimizer is permitted to apply when correcting the amplitude response to match a target curve.
In addition to Adaptive Pre-emphasis, the new firmware offers an Adaptive Limiter Excursion Curve, which is based on the Adaptive Pre-emphasis computations. The Adaptive Limiter provides an extra level of protection against excessive correction where ambient noise is mistaken for an actual signal. Calibrators will also rejoice in knowing that the Excursion Curve is no longer applied on a global basis to all speakers and is now available on a per-speaker basis, enabling finer system tuning when needed.

REDUCED PRE-RINGING​

A somewhat controversial topic in the audio calibration world is pre-ringing when FIR filters are used for correction. Whether pre-ringing is an audible phenomenon or not, it is an issue some wish to address. Since Trinnov’s core expertise and focus is on advanced signal processing applied to digital acoustics, 4.3.1 offers an advanced setting that enables Pre-ringing reduction. This enables advanced calibrators to use the Optimizer’s FIR length and reference settings to fine tune filter resolution and phase correction without audible artifacts.

 

[Fidji99]

Lot of pink noise and some REW sweeps coming out of my HT in last days. Not day and night but still some improvements:

1) After some experiminenting with REW and MSO, I think I have sweet spot on Bass Management and EQ, using Trinnov to almost full extent. [I use 2xMiniDsp Flex as basically external DACs in 2xSPDIF in 4 CH out] [trinnov lets you use 4 channels of Digital out, lot of people connect their audiophile DACs]

Individual sub measurements with REW imported to MSO [level matched subs] for front 4, then run using only delay block and All-Pass Filter [2 per sub], APF loaded into MiniDsp, Delay adjusted manually into Trinnov and calibrated all 4 subs as "4way speaker". This resulted in getting approx 7dB extra headroom compared to traditional MSO approach [now running ech front sub at -15dB gain to get to combined 85dB with another 20dB digital headroom], very good FR and Group Delay best I have ever seen. Result being punchy, clean, fast [or whatever you call it] with lots od air being moved by 4 subs in front ad 2 subs behind MLP.

After lot of experimenting and A/B-ing I have settled at Single Bass Array up front [4 subs, handled as 1 sub]] and 2 subs in rear corners. Beauty of it all, is that I can manage each sub individually- e.g. I can assign subs into groups up to 4 and also system can consider any speaker being a sub and redirect any bass signal from any speaker. [nobody does it, but you still can]

I think 90% can be done achieved also with MiniDsp, but still. more subs I incorporate into my setup, more I can appreciate the flexibility of trinnov.

2) Individual Excursion Limiter - ideal for somebody like me, with different speakers for LCR and rest. Now I can limit each speaker individually and not allowing any correction outside of distortion free zone [eg I allow any correction for Motions 35 to start only at 70Hz] and do limit corrections in treble.

Before - i had one excursion limiter for all speakers.

You can hear it in movies, in big scenes - slightly cleaner sound and overall cohesiveness of the soundstage.

3) pre-ringing reduction - yes, you can hear it on classical music, if you concentrate.
4) Bass Management- is just optimized phase between mains and subs. Something I have done manually before.

Overall 3&4 are more changes that allow for more automated handling vs manual setting. Layman can get nearer to pro.

 

[Fidji99]

And as a fun fact - this is what Trinnov considers to be audiophile” target curve

 

[Fidji99]

Some news - I have pulled the trigger and gone full speed to extend my Altitude to 32CH

Primary reason being this ->
https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/pos...olutionary-waveforming-sup-tm-sup-technology/
this will require approx. 8 subs to work optimally, so want to be prepared. Happy, that implementation is advancing, so that somewhere around Q1 Fy24 we can expect the roll-out. Good thing is that TRINNOV really is a modular system - and upgrade costs are quite modest - e.g channel count increase is 500 eur/ch , so nothing dramatic in today's world. There was DAC board upgrade some time ago, HDMI2.1 upgrade etc.

 

[Fidji99]

And as a consequence -> I am starting to re-build my subwoofer section. Even me being very loyal ML Customer - I need to say, that, unfortunately, ML has its ceiling, if we talk about really serious, high SPL, low FR extension installation. BF subs do not make the cut, as they are [among other reasons] dipole, which will not work with Trinnov.

I have looked at several commercial options - SVS, Velodyne, JL, REL and I have settled for EU PSA clone - 18in, Sealed, custom made with 1500W/Ch, priced on the Dynamo 1600x level, so I can have 3 for the price of 1 BF212.

Target is to have 4x18 in , 4x Dynamo 1600x in the first stage, and probably 8x18in in the end. That would 12KW and equivalent of 1 50in Woofer and it should bring me to low Teens, maybe even single digit FR.

Subs will be stackable, with extended back-plate, so they can be mounted directly on the wall, if needed.

 

[ttocs]

Some news - I have pulled the trigger and gone full speed to extend my Altitude to 32CH
View attachment 24271

Primary reason being this ->
https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/pos...olutionary-waveforming-sup-tm-sup-technology/
this will require approx. 8 subs to work optimally, so want to be prepared. Happy, that implementation is advancing, so that somewhere around Q1 Fy24 we can expect the roll-out. Good thing is that TRINNOV really is a modular system - and upgrade costs are quite modest - e.g channel count increase is 500 eur/ch , so nothing dramatic in today's world. There was DAC board upgrade some time ago, HDMI2.1 upgrade etc.

THIS is very exciting news!!

I'm very interested in hearing about your setup, and eventually, the results!

 

[Fidji99]

THIS is very exciting news!!

I'm very interested in hearing about your setup, and eventually, the results!

I am really excited about the general state of play for MCH and HT. After really bad years with format wars, obsolete HW etc.

We live the best times - lot of immersive audio content, 4K, streaming, more or less affordable processors that are good. D Class amps with tons of power running cool. REW/MSO for enthusiasts. And on top - DRC systems evolving - Dirac, Audyssey, Trinnov, healthy competition. 4K laser projectior with affordable prices, BIG TV's for the price of 55in LCD couple of years ago.

I had a chance to listen to new DIRAC ART demo with Perlisten speakers and it was also very, very interesting. Once exclusivity to Storm Audio ends, we can expect gradual roll-out to other brands. It will give quantum leap improvement to a lot of people.

 

[Davioj]

Fidji99 what are the dimensions of your room​

 

[Fidji99]

It is trapezoidal shape with the lenght of slighltly more then 6m and front wall is longer with 5.5m. so around 32sqm and 3m ceiling height.

 

[Davioj]

It is trapezoidal shape with the lenght of slighltly more then 6m and front wall is longer with 5.5m. so around 32sqm and 3m ceiling height.

Wow thats a lot of speakers for that size room, mine is 5.6 m x 4 m so I know why you have to have so many acoustic treatments for that much sound, very nice room I really had to treat mine also, I see you have the C-18 I think that will be my next purchase I have the Esl c, front are the reQuests, rear are the Ethos and the 4 atmos are electromotion IC. I have windows on the 1 side wall covered by slat blinds what kind of drapes are you using on the side walls.

 

[Dennis Chern]

And as a consequence -> I am starting to re-build my subwoofer section. Even me being very loyal ML Customer - I need to say, that, unfortunately, ML has its ceiling, if we talk about really serious, high SPL, low FR extension installation. BF subs do not make the cut, as they are [among other reasons] dipole, which will not work with Trinnov.

I have looked at several commercial options - SVS, Velodyne, JL, REL and I have settled for EU PSA clone - 18in, Sealed, custom made with 1500W/Ch, priced on the Dynamo 1600x level, so I can have 3 for the price of 1 BF212.

Target is to have 4x18 in , 4x Dynamo 1600x in the first stage, and probably 8x18in in the end. That would 12KW and equivalent of 1 50in Woofer and it should bring me to low Teens, maybe even single digit FR.

Subs will be stackable, with extended back-plate, so they can be mounted directly on the wall, if needed.

you may be underestimating the BF 212. they are a significant step up from 1600's. they have immense power and linearity. they aren't dipoles, but opposed force, like a Boxter engine. hence their term Balanced Force. the absence of the slightest cabinet vibration is stunning. there's a lot of hype and over specing in the subwoofer field. I have a lot of experience with these, and they are hard to beat.