Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[amey01]

Why would we even need to be objective, it's subjective pleasure that we seek.

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em (as they say).

Maybe I should get in on the action??

I'm going to start selling little bamboo sticks which you place under your preamplifier. The sound quality gain is immense. How it works of course, is a highly guarded secret of mine, however doing this "stabilises the signal through the gain devices".

$4,900 each (you'll need at least 2 for each preamp).

Who's in?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Looks like this thread is going in the "typical" direction.

I will never understand why people with opposing views cannot discuss something with some realm of decency and respect and instead resort to insults and other innuendos.

 

[eknuds01]

Perhaps one analogy might be that when you build a house, the foundation, quality of materials, etc. is where you need to spend the money. I think for what the cable industry promises vs. what is can be 'delivered' in terms of improvement is dubious at best. I've always felt that if the cost of cables is kept at 5-10% of the total system cost, you are in good shape. If your cables end up costing more than the speakers or amplifier (and you might be surprised how many cables retail for more than $2000 or even $5000), I'd say you are putting the cart before the horse.

It is rather interesting that cables, of all things, bring out so much debate among us audiophiles!

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Perhaps one analogy might be that when you build a house, the foundation, quality of materials, etc. is where you need to spend the money. I think for what the cable industry promises vs. what is can be 'delivered' in terms of improvement is dubious at best. I've always felt that if the cost of cables is kept at 5-10% of the total system cost, you are in good shape. If your cables end up costing more than the speakers or amplifier (and you might be surprised how many cables retail for more than $2000 or even $5000), I'd say you are putting the cart before the horse.

It is rather interesting that cables, of all things, bring out so much debate among us audiophiles!

It is interesting isn't it

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Looks like this thread is going in the "typical" direction.

I will never understand why people with opposing views cannot discuss something with some realm of decency and respect and instead resort to insults and other innuendos.

Sadly we may as well be debating whether there is one true religion or if God exists.

People have a propensity to want to believe things and will band together into groups that defend their beliefs no matter what they are. Much of the worship that each religion asks for is to help reinforce it's beliefs and to surround its members with other people with the same beliefs so that they have affirmation of their beliefs. All people believe many things that they just know is true to their core whether those beliefs are true or not.

 

[Gordon Gray]

All people believe many things that they just know is true to their core whether those beliefs are true or not.

Interesting comment Mark given the fact that I offered a free / no cost audition to you to try a power cable to test your "objective" beliefs that power cables make no sonic difference and you said "I have no interest".

PS: Absent you, or anyone else for that matter, to make a universal judgement regarding the audibility or inaudibility of a product without inserting the item in your personal system and forming a personal / informed opinion sounds a lot like the audio version of "religion" to me. With all due respect, I think this is very hypocritical on your part and others who criticize without any basis for that opinion /belief.

And I am not "banding together" with anyone. My comments are based on my personal experiences only.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Interesting comment Mark given the fact that I offered a free / no cost audition to you to try a power cable to test your "objective" beliefs that power cables make no sonic difference and you said "I have no interest".

PS: Absent you, or anyone else for that matter, to make a universal judgement regarding the audibility or inaudibility of a product without inserting the item in your personal system and forming a personal / informed opinion sounds a lot like the audio version of "religion" to me. With all due respect, I think this is very hypocritical on your part and others who criticize without any basis for that opinion /belief.

And I am not "banding together" with anyone. My comments are based on my personal experiences only.

Gordon,

First of all my ML's have been sitting disconnected since Thanksgiving so I still wouldn't have been able to try them yet.
Second, I didn't want to waste my time or your time.

Since I'm not expecting to hear any change I can absolutely guarantee that I won't hear any change.
In the end I didn't want to waste the time testing them and then shipping them back to you.

I'm very openly saying that I'm as biased as anyone else, so I don't see the hypocrisy. Moreover since I don't believe I will hear a difference, cognitive dissonance will almost certainly guarantee that what I hear matches that belief.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I misinterpreted your initial response to my offer.

I guess I'm still somewhat baffled. At what point do you stop using your ears and start using your biases when selecting the gear that you buy?

Best,

Gordon

 

[MPS]

"Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter."

Why is it always like this? People have made their minds up already before they start researching something.
Doesn't sound very scientific or objective in my mind but then again, guess I'm thinking subjectively.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I misinterpreted your initial response to my offer.

I guess I'm still somewhat baffled. At what point do you stop using your ears and start using your biases when selecting the gear that you buy?

Best,

Gordon

Gordon,

Given the generous nature of your offer I decided that it would be best if I just thanked you for your offer and declined rather than reading you the riot act

Otherwise, I don't have a good answer. We all make our decisions based on the best information that we believe. That is part of the human condition.

 

[Brad225]

Interesting that a new wood floor is expected to improve the sound of a system but cables and cords can't possibly improve a system. Go figure.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Interesting that a new wood floor is expected to improve the sound of a system but cables and cords can't possibly improve a system. Go figure.

Considering that your listening room is effectively part of your speaker system and room interactions are very measurable. Wave cancellation, resonance, standing waves, etc.. etc.. are all very measurable and easy to prove, I'm not sure how that comparison holds up.

I also doubt that a hardwood floor should be expected to improve the sound of a system. Going from a completely carpeted room with a foam pad and carpet vs. adding additional stiffness with 3/4" wood glued and nailed to the subfloor making a more solid 1.5" of wood should be expected to change the dynamics of the room to some extent. Whether that impact is good or bad or barely noticeable would dramatically depend on the particular room.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

You might be pleasantly surprised. Would recommend an area rug between your listening area and the speakers.

Gordon

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Mark,

You might be pleasantly surprised. Would recommend an area rug between your listening area and the speakers.

Gordon

We have an area rug that starts a few inches in front of my speakers and that extends under the couch I listen on.

After the flooring was installed my wife replaced both sets of couches and love seats on the main level and ordered numerous area rugs. Now she is looking at new drapes and artwork. It's a never ending thing.

 

[RUR]

I also doubt that a hardwood floor should be expected to improve the sound of a system.

I suspect that, in general, hardwood floors will result in some/many high-gain reflections easily seen in an ETC measurement. Most folks will find that objectionable, but subjectivism reigns and/or folks may not even be aware that floor reflections are the root cause of problems they may be experiencing.

 

[sleepysurf]

I suspect that, in general, hardwood floors will result in some/many high-gain reflections easily seen in an ETC measurement. Most folks will find that objectionable, but subjectivism reigns and/or folks may not even be aware that floor reflections are the root cause of problems they may be experiencing.

ML's are essentially a line-source (at least for stat panel mids/highs), so floor and ceiling reflections are less critical (vs. cones). Bass is another issue, but ARC DSP in the new Masterpiece series helps with that.

I went from carpet to hardwood (concrete slab) + rug in my listening/family room, and feel it significantly improved dynamics. YMMV.

 

[Rich]

I suspect that, in general, hardwood floors will result in some/many high-gain reflections easily seen in an ETC measurement. Most folks will find that objectionable, but subjectivism reigns and/or folks may not even be aware that floor reflections are the root cause of problems they may be experiencing.

Especially in the case of the Summit's, which have a downward-firing woofer, the type of floor you have can make a big difference in your bass response. Floor resonances can really ruin the sound.

I think the Summits are likewise a good example of how much speaker cables can make a difference. Remember, the amplified signal coming through the speaker cables doesn't just go to the panels. It is converted to a line level signal and then sent to the internal amp to be reamplified to power the woofers. Thus, changes in the electrical properties of the speaker wire (inductance, capacitance, and resistance) can have a noticeable effect on the final output.

Things are rarely as simple and straight forward as they may appear. When you have complex high end components, a clean and capable power source, and a well-designed, acoustically-treated room, is it really a stretch to believe that the quality of the cables connecting your gear together and to the power source can make a difference in the sound? I think people use the fact that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen in the cable business (and there are, no doubt) to flock to the other end of the spectrum and claim that cables can't possibly make a difference in the sound. From my experience, the truth is in the middle. Yes, they can make a difference (if you have everything else taken care of). But no, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars per cable to get the best sound out of your system.

 

[twich54]

damn that 'Rich' kid is good ! ............... your post sums it up Rich, especially the last two sentences !

 

[Gordon Gray]

I think it is somewhat accepted that cables act as tone controls. As such, they can be quite effective to resolve "some" frequency anamolies.

As always, salt and pepper to taste.

 

[amey01]

I think it is somewhat accepted that cables act as tone controls.

Don't take this the wrong way Gordon, but is this really the case?

Tone controls are a known quantity, deliver an expected result, are easily measurable and replicable, and there is a basic understanding of how they work.

None of this is the case with cables. If a tone control delivers a "2dB cut to frequency above 10,000Hz at 6dB/octave", can anything near that really be replicated by [[any]] cable?