Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[twich54]

I totally agree that the top stuff from MIT, Transparent, Crystal etc. are extravagantly priced for the average lay person. I consider Shunyata's "middle" line, which I am buying, to be a relative bargain from a the price / performance perspective. That "value" judgement (including the uber stuff) will obviously vary from individual to individual.

agreed and again I think Rich summed it up best in his post.

And obviously I misspoke. I also listen to music, not wires.

I knew that ........ and you knew I had to bust your stones a wee bit !

How you liking your new speakers by the way?

extremely satisfied ....... but I must admit I'm afraid to go listen to the new Logan's, LOL !

 

[Gordon Gray]

Don't do it my friend. Just be happy with what you have. I'm sure it kicks some serious butt.

Over the last 18 months or so, I have tried four different "pricey" pieces in my system thinking I could substantially improve on what I have. Latest to come and go was the dCS Puccini with U-clock. Returned or sold all four.

So absent making improvements on the "edges" (cables in my case), I'm done.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Don't do it my friend. Just be happy with what you have.

I know I don't have anywhere near a comparable system, but that is where I am already. Once I got past tickled with how it sounded I was done. It puts a big grin on my face already so anything past this point would be dramatically diminishing returns.

 

[amey01]

Adam,

I've gone back and forth over the years (Mapleshade, DH Labs, Kimber, Audioquest, Tara Labs, MIT and currently Shunyatya Research) with OFC vs silver but for me at least, it's what sounds best from a "synergy" perspective assuming you put credence in what your ears are telling you.

Gordon

Fully agree Gordon. All I'm saying is that there are other things which will give a far more worthwhile / consistent / absolute increase in sound quality to bother buggerising around with wire.

While some might enjoy playing around with ICs, power cords, shakti stones, shun mooks ......magic dots......; I'll play around with amps, speakers, DACs, room treatments.

I don't think there will be any argument who will be making more significant changes to their system

YMMV.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Adam,

That's what I thought and on a basic level, it seems that it should be true but here's my recent history over the last 2 years or so on gear purchased and returned or sold because I didn't like the sound.


1) YG Kipod Signature speaker
2) Pass Labs X350.5
3) Esoteric K01 CDP
4) dCS Puccini CDP with U-clock
5) OPPO 105D Universal Player

So we have three different digital sources, one amp and one pair of speakers all auditioned and returned.

Go figure.

I have my ideas as to why things didn't work out with all of these except for the amp. That was and still is a big unknown.

Best,

Gordon

PS: And I did try numerous scenarios regarding placement of my ATS Acoustic panels (various sizes and thicknesses)

 

[Gordon Gray]

I know I don't have anywhere near a comparable system, but that is where I am already.

Mark,

Doesn't matter. What does matter is that you are happy with your system. And it sounds like you are.

Best,

Gordon

 

[Rich]

Gordon, given #4 and #5 of your recent auditions list, I highly recommend you consider auditioning PS Audio's new transport, the DirectStream Memory Player, coupled with their DirectStream DAC. Best digital playback I have heard, and I have the old version of the memory player. The new one is supposed to be even better at CD detail retrieval and also offers SACD playback (which the old version doesn't -- I may have to upgrade). The DAC produces an amazing soundstage and a beautifully realistic portrayal of the music. Highly recommended! Underwood HiFi generally offers a nice discount on this gear, if you are interested.

 

[Brad225]

I'm with Gordon here. I have been using Shunyata ICs and PCs for a while and am very happy with them. I have gone the DIY route and a few other manufactures and believe there is a difference.

I do shake my head at the 5 & 6 figure cables, though I have never heard them, they will probably never reside in my system.

For me EW is to be taken with a big grain of salt. I have followed some of his writings in the past, and he also doesn't believe amps make a difference either. I don't know if he still continues that belief.

If so unless the rest of his system is so bad, I don't know how he can believe that.

That is just my opinion.

 

[Bernard]

EW has at least one YouTube video (at the AES, no less) where he attempts to debunk "audio myths".

I am firmly in the "cables make a difference" camp, having compared cables for which I paid no money (I have a friendly ML dealer who lends me stuff), so there was no incentive to like cables for which I paid "silly bugger money".

Gordon, is "silly bugger" more acceptable than "stupid"? Put me down for one!

Analog ICs do make a difference (to MY ears, in MY system), as do S/PDIF cables; I have not played with PCs.

Roberto's oft-stated, "Trust your ears" bears repeating.

 

[twich54]

whoa .......an awful lot of 'agreement' going on here .......on a thread about 'wire' ????? must have been the VO Manhattan before dinner ??? ...............

 

[Rich]

Regarding the topic of this thread, let me recount a story. Several years ago, Roger Sanders loaned me an A/B/X switch he created so I could compare his preamp to my ARC Ref 3. He was convinced I wouldn't be able to hear a difference in my system. He was wrong. It was close, but I could detect a slight edginess in the highs with his preamp that didn't show up with the Ref 3. I couldn't pick it out every time, but much more often than random chance would dictate. Needless to say, I kept the Ref 3. But I also kept the Sanders preamp, because I found that it didn't exhibit any edginess when paired with the Pass x350.5 in my secondary system. And I have enjoyed it for many years in that system. The moral of the story is to trust your ears and work towards synergy of all the components in your system.

 

[amey01]

Adam,

That's what I thought and on a basic level, it seems that it should be true but here's my recent history over the last 2 years or so on gear purchased and returned or sold because I didn't like the sound.


1) YG Kipod Signature speaker
2) Pass Labs X350.5
3) Esoteric K01 CDP
4) dCS Puccini CDP with U-clock
5) OPPO 105D Universal Player

So we have three different digital sources, one amp and one pair of speakers all auditioned and returned.

Go figure.

I have my ideas as to why things didn't work out with all of these except for the amp. That was and still is a big unknown.

Best,

Gordon

PS: And I did try numerous scenarios regarding placement of my ATS Acoustic panels (various sizes and thicknesses)

Yes .......the new gear made a difference; but you didn't like that difference. No problem with that. At least it made a difference. Unlike [[SOME]] other things.

 

[amey01]

Roberto's oft-stated, "Trust your ears" bears repeating.

Yes, but should you trust your brain to adequately and accurately interpret what your ears are providing to it? Especially given that your brain has so many more variables going on (such as the sight of a nicely braided super-thick cable, or knowledge of the amount of $$ you spent on your Mooks for instance).

 

[Bernard]

Too many people to say "well I heard a difference, so that's all that matters"........
....

If I heard a difference what else matters? After all, I'm going to listen to music through the cables, I'm not going to perform measurements with them, where there may be other considerations.

Yes, but should you trust your brain to adequately and accurately interpret what your ears are providing to it? Especially given that your brain has so many more variables going on (such as the sight of a nicely braided super-thick cable, or knowledge of the amount of $$ you spent on your Mooks for instance).

Adam, old boy, this is hifi, not the X-Files, where you trust no one

Your brain is the final arbiter of what you enjoy, so there is implicit trust in it. If you can't trust your brain, you might as well pack up your ARC gear, sell it, buy Bose, and use the money you have left to buy a bottle of the finest wine. But then, how can you trust that your brain is correctly interpreting what your palate is telling it?

Reminds me, time to resurrect the Wine and Cheese thread...I have a few new discoveries.

- the sight of super-thick cable? I listen in the dark. Well, I don't, but you get the point!

- Shun Mooks: they cost me nothing until I decided I liked them, as Roberto offered to buy them from me if I didn't like them; good old Roberto! It's been said that all the evidence about them is anecdotal, so here's an anecdote...after I had listened to them, and had decided on the difference they made, a non-audiofool friend of mine happened to visit. I played him the same track with and without the Mooks, and asked him if he heard a difference, without telling him what I perceived. He said he did hear a difference, describing EXACTLY what I had heard.

 

[amey01]

If I heard a difference what else matters?

Sort of. Ultimately, nothing else matters......but if you've unnecessarily spent $XXXXX for no objective gain, then most people would care.

Reminds me, time to resurrect the Wine and Cheese thread...I have a few new discoveries.

YES....we do.

That, Sir, is the most valuable upgrade to your system anyone can make.

Quaff enough bottles and even Bose will sound like Martin Logan

 

[Rich]

......but if you've unnecessarily spent $XXXXX for no objective gain, then most people would care.

Aye, but therein lies the rub. If you truly believe you hear a positive difference, then you have achieved an objective gain. Whether you can measure that difference or even whether anyone else can notice that difference, is completely irrelevant. It's your system. It's your personal connection to the music. You have achieved an objective personal gain if you believe you have improved the sound of your system, even if your brain is fooling you. The amount of money you spent is also relatively irrelevant. If you consider the change that you hear to be good value for the money spent, then it is a good value to you. Others' opinions on the value judgment are irrelevant. Value is a personalized metric that will vary with each individual. The majority of people in the world would consider the money we spend on speakers, amps, etc. to be a ridiculous waste of money with no perceived benefit or value for the money spent. But we know better (at least we think we do). These expensive components improve our connection with the music, which is of paramount importance to us. Who cares if Joe the plumber thinks a Bose system sounds better? Value is completely subjective. It's your money and your system.

 

[Bernard]

Sort of. Ultimately, nothing else matters......but if you've unnecessarily spent $XXXXX for no objective gain, then most people would care.

But this is all subjective, not objective.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi folks,

A few additional comments.

Mark. Did not mean to hijack your thread. Sorry.

EW. He claims that if an amplifier passes three different measurement parameters, all amplifiers will sound the "same". Again, I respect EW for his "objective" advocacy but myself and many others disagree with his measurement based conclusions.

Rich. Thanks for the recommend. May have to try the PS Audio combo once my Cary eventually "dies". Especially given the fact I can try with a full 100% money back option and it can play SACD's.

Cost. After I sell my Cardas Gold Reference power cord which will likely be replaced with the Shunyata Research Alpha HC power cord, my out of pocket expense will be about $550. If I decided to return the product, which is highly unlikely, I can get a full refund.

Adam. Initial impressions of the SR PC. Totally audible (for the better) even with my right ear hearing loss. If you believe in "burn in", the SR PC needs a bit more time. Have about 180 hours of time so far. Think of it as a window that needs to be cleaned. Impact on expansion of imaging dimensionality is major. And given the overall cost of my system, it is such a very small dollar delta for the requisite improvements. Think no brainer.

And finally Kudos to all who have posted.. A thread about wire that hasn't descended into the proverbial gutter. At least not yet.

Best,

Gordon

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Aye, but therein lies the rub. If you truly believe you hear a positive difference, then you have achieved an objective gain. Whether you can measure that difference or even whether anyone else can notice that difference, is completely irrelevant.

True. And if someone swapped out your new cables for $3 cheapos in the middle of the night and you didn't know that had happened you would continue to realize that achieved objective gain the next day and the day after that until the day you noticed.

My ML speakers have been sitting unconnected since Thanksgiving when we put a Christmas tree up in our den.

What I have noticed is that with absence of my "HiFi" system my car stereo starts to sound better and better as do the studio monitors in my office. They start to shine in fact. Next week when I hook my ML's back up I suspect I will have the same reaction as I had last year. Suddenly my car stereo will sound like crap and my studio monitors will suffer.

On the other hand there are days when I listen to something on my ML's at home and my mind seems to fill in the blanks on an inferior system. It doesn't always happen, but sometimes it does.

When I'm working out regularly and feel great, my stereo also sounds better.

I've also noticed that my car seems to run better after I've got it all detailed. At that moment I'm feeling really good about my clean car and miraculously it seems to drive better even though I haven't touched the mechanicals on it.

We all live in a perception bubble. It is impossible for anyone to be objective about anything they perceive.

 

[MPS]

We all live in a perception bubble. It is impossible for anyone to be objective about anything they perceive.

Why would we even need to be objective, it's subjective pleasure that we seek.