CLX Upgrade: Things To Be Aware Of

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Bernard,
The membership on this site is quite small as I stated on page 11 of the other thread seen below.I would say the vast number of ML members don't belong to our site here when you compare the membership on other sites. However if word of this panel increase ever got into the forum section ofwww. audiogon.com, Audioaficondo,.audioassylum[/url], Canuck audio mart , etc, ML sales would plummit, so would any resale value of your current speakers.Once word gets out to the big sites, it's a done deal.

From page 11 of the other thread
I think it would be a mistake for Martin Logan to ignore our concerns.We are members on other audio sites which have a much greater membership than this site, they also have forum topic sctions. www.audioaficiondo.com has 60,000 members, www.canuckaudiomart.com has 41,500.www.audiogon has a huge membership as well as www.audioassylum. Our little community here has just over 2000 members.

Moon,

Given the small size of this niche in audio, the word will definitely get out.

The only question is when.

GG

 

[Steelhead]

Wow, news to me

Have not come around in the last few years. Been too busy listening to my Summits and cleaning records.

Glad I checked in as I am currently listing my ReQuests for sale and was going to estimate a panel replacement cost of 800 dollars to potential buyers. Guess I better break out the "buyer beware" motto as that would have been embarassing as I was not aware of the price spike in replacement panels.

Glad your still speaking truth to power Rich. I am still ****ed that they sent Jim Power
in service out to pasture.

Jeeezzz, that sucks as I really enjoy my Summits and now I might just go way old school and find some classic JBL's with alinco magnets down the road when the panels start to go.

Wow,

 

[amey01]

Wow,

Yeah, this has pretty much shocked us all to the core.

 

[Rich]

Glad your still speaking truth to power Rich. I am still ****ed that they sent Jim Power
in service out to pasture.

Thanks, man. I'm still really pissed about the Jim Power thing too.

 

[babydoc]

Have not come around in the last few years. Been too busy listening to my Summits and cleaning records.

Glad your still speaking truth to power Rich. I am still ****ed that they sent Jim Power
in service out to pasture.

Jeeezzz, that sucks as I really enjoy my Summits and now I might just go way old school and find some classic JBL's with alinco magnets down the road when the panels start to go.

Wow,

Glad I checked in as I am currently listing my ReQuests for sale and was going to estimate a panel replacement cost of 800 dollars to potential buyers. Guess I better break out the "buyer beware" motto as that would have been embarassing as I was not aware of the price spike in replacement panels.

I have been following this thread for about one month. I think that there are some misconceptions going on here. First, given the the fact that CLX's have only been around for about four years, no one really knows how long their panels will last. I would suspect that the newer stator design is probably more robust than the older generation so that 10-15 years could be reasonably, although it is possible that this could be an underestimate. Second, with the exceptions of "classic" gear (Marantz, McIntosh, and the like) no one should consider audio gear an "investment" since it depreciates rapidly, has a finite lifespan, and is nearly always going to become "obsolete." Third, you buy this stuff to enjoy. If resale is a concerrn, then buying the most expensive and hardest to sell items should disqualify these pieces from a prospective shopping list. The downside of doing that is that you might miss out on some really amazing stuff. Regarding ML's support side since the Canadian move, I had a woofer go bad in my EFX surround speaker. Three days later, a new one shows up on my door stepo and 10 minutes later I am back in business. No muss no fuss. This is as good as it was in the Kansas days. I would humbly suggest that before ML forum members wage a "bad mouth" campaign against ML, they do this objectively, regarding their own experiences rather than either hearsay or concern that replacement panels will put them "out of business." Finally, if some one told me that it would cost me $5000 to keep a 10-15 year old $25K speaker on the road for another 10-15 years, this is an annualized cost of $300 to $500, not a show stopper for many audiophile.

 

[jmschnur]

I totally agree with your comments .


J

 

[Horchem1972]

I would humbly suggest that before ML forum members wage a "bad mouth" campaign against ML, they do this objectively, regarding their own experiences rather than either hearsay or concern that replacement panels will put them "out of business." Finally, if some one told me that it would cost me $5000 to keep a 10-15 year old $25K speaker on the road for another 10-15 years, this is an annualized cost of $300 to $500, not a show stopper for many audiophile.[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. The actual replacement cost for CLX panels will run you over $9000 not $5000. I have called ML and this is their own price quote. The panels may last 10-15 years or 5-6 years. Then the cost would be $1500- $1800 annual cost. Do you think that it is right to triple panel prices within the last year, or that material costs have tripled? Is it right that ML has continuously lied to the members on this forum? I do believe that customer service has suffered since the move as do others. I have owned ML products for 20 years and have never thought of them as greedy and dishonest up until the new ownership.

 

[amey01]

Finally, if some one told me that it would cost me $5000 to keep a 10-15 year old $25K speaker on the road for another 10-15 years, this is an annualized cost of $300 to $500, not a show stopper for many audiophile.

Definitely not. Sorry. Completely out of touch with the real audiophile world.

What about the more realistic scenario????? Not many audiophiles keep the same speaker for 30 years (that is, 15 years, plus another 15).

The more likely scenario is this:

1. You spend $25k on a pair of speakers.
2. After 8-10 years, you get itchy feet and want to upgrade.
3. You (and everyone else) knows the speakers only have 0-5 years lifespan left in them at this point.
4. It would cost upwards of $15,000 to ensure the speakers keep running for another 10-15 years for the next owner
5. How much would you expect to get for your $25k speakers?
6. How much less would you then have for your exciting, forthcoming upgrade?

Finally - back 'round up to 1.

.......would you spend that $25k on those speakers now?

Honestly - with that scenario, you'd likely be having to pay someone to take the large, oversized, soon-to-be paperweights away for you.

Either that, or pay the $15,000+ yourself and get maybe half what the speakers were worth new (if you're lucky and negotiate well) - $12,500 and enjoy being out of pocket by $4,000.

Wow - smart buy that would be........NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY SOUND......

 

[jmschnur]

Each to their own. I have a 1989 BMW 325 and my B&W 801 Matrix are in my living room.

My new Montis (9 months) is in my listening room. I have only sold one component of my system in 30 years.

Others may do lots of trading and selling of their used items.

Different companies may target your buying habits or mine.

It is clear that B&W, BMW, and now ML are expensive to maintain in the 15-30 year time frame, but they do seem to serviceable after many years nevertheless .

Some companies produce items which do not last. Some do. Some companies have inexpensive parts. Whether those with inexpensive parts are those that have products that still perform well after 15-30 years is not clear.


It will up to the marketplace to determine which business practices are profitable.

Ml's new management is finding its way in this milieu of hi end audio. It is clear the marketplace is evolving and will continue to change.






J

 

[MOON]

Well, it got had to happen. Someone printed this on our canuckaudiomart site.
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drace1 Post subject: Re: Your favourite music related websitesPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:26 am



Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:01 pm
Posts: 331
Location: Caledonia, ON, CA Martin Logan Owners Club . Lot of discussion going on right now abou a replacement panel price increase.
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Seems like ML never got back to Rich's questions on the other thread on panel replacement.I thought Rich had very valid points that required futher answers from ML,instead there is just silence.

 

[babydoc]

I would humbly suggest that before ML forum members wage a "bad mouth" campaign against ML, they do this objectively, regarding their own experiences rather than either hearsay or concern that replacement panels will put them "out of business." Finally, if some one told me that it would cost me $5000 to keep a 10-15 year old $25K speaker on the road for another 10-15 years, this is an annualized cost of $300 to $500, not a show stopper for many audiophile.

I respectfully disagree. The actual replacement cost for CLX panels will run you over $9000 not $5000. I have called ML and this is their own price quote. The panels may last 10-15 years or 5-6 years. Then the cost would be $1500- $1800 annual cost. Do you think that it is right to triple panel prices within the last year, or that material costs have tripled? Is it right that ML has continuously lied to the members on this forum? I do believe that customer service has suffered since the move as do others. I have owned ML products for 20 years and have never thought of them as greedy and dishonest up until the new ownership.[/QUOTE]

 

[babydoc]

I respectfully disagree. The actual replacement cost for CLX panels will run you over $9000 not $5000. I have called ML and this is their own price quote. The panels may last 10-15 years or 5-6 years. Then the cost would be $1500- $1800 annual cost. Do you think that it is right to triple panel prices within the last year, or that material costs have tripled? Is it right that ML has continuously lied to the members on this forum? I do believe that customer service has suffered since the move as do others. I have owned ML products for 20 years and have never thought of them as greedy and dishonest up until the new ownership.

[/QUOTE]

I think that you misunderstood my estimate. If you look at 8000 to 9000 over 30 years, it is 300 - 500 total annually for three decades. I agree that many will not keep their speakers that long. If I make it 30 more years my hearing will probably not be good enough to tell the difference between the CLXs and iPod earbuds. The point here is that if ML is being disingenuous and trying to stick it to consumers, they will not sell many of the higher end products to US consumers. While the ML owners forum may represent a fraction of the market, they are digitally "vocal" group of consumers. This may not matter to the current owners of ML since they are focusing on lower end products and those that have weighed in are a small niche. Personally, I have moved up the ML line and the CLXs are the best speakers that I have heard, period, and I do not intend to replace them in my lifetime.

 

[Horchem1972]

ML is destroying their own used market. It would be absurd to spend over 10K on used CLX speakers when panels will cost you over $9000. That is very near the cost of buying a new pair. The ML supporters of the move have never explained why the company has continued to lie to the forum members. This is why many once loyal followers are going elsewhere.

 

[Horchem1972]

I think that you misunderstood my estimate. If you look at 8000 to 9000 over 30 years, it is 300 - 500 total annually for three decades. I agree that many will not keep their speakers that long. If I make it 30 more years my hearing will probably not be good enough to tell the difference between the CLXs and iPod earbuds. The point here is that if ML is being disingenuous and trying to stick it to consumers, they will not sell many of the higher end products to US consumers. While the ML owners forum may represent a fraction of the market, they are digitally "vocal" group of consumers. This may not matter to the current owners of ML since they are focusing on lower end products and those that have weighed in are a small niche. Personally, I have moved up the ML line and the CLXs are the best speakers that I have heard, period, and I do not intend to replace them in my lifetime.[/QUOTE]

With due respect, I read exactly what you wrote. You stated panel cost at $5000 which would put replacement cost at $300-$500 annually over a 10-15 year period. There was no misunderstanding, I just read what you wrote. If you are now using a 30 year panel lifespan panels would be $250 annually if prices never go up. If they do raise their prices in line with legacy models the price will be $12,500- $13,000 for panel replacement. The numbers do not lie it is the cold hard truth.

 

[Len44]

I don't think I've ever seen a company shoot itself in both feet so completely. What was once a great company is, sadly, no more.

That their leaders do not even deem it worthy to address the member's concerns on this forum speaks volumes. They simply don't care.

 

[twich54]

What was once a great company is, sadly, no more.

That their leaders do not even deem it worthy to address the member's concerns on this forum speaks volumes. They simply don't care.

Len, little overly dramatic IMO, but whatever.........now if I may replace a few words.......'country' for company, 'our' for their, 'citizens' for members.

See...it's more than just M/L, one could say it's the whole damn Country !

 

[amey01]

. Personally, I have moved up the ML line and the CLXs are the best speakers that I have heard, period, and I do not intend to replace them in my lifetime.

You've only just gone out and bought a new pair of speakers (that have only been available for the last two years or so).

Get back to us in five years and tell me if you still feel the same.

What about 10 years (when they will have been used to within an inch of their lives).

 

[amey01]

but they do seem to serviceable after many years nevertheless .

J

Well, that was almost off the cards too........but not for the uproar on this site at such an audacious suggestion.

Let me guess - you would have probably been okay with discontinued support too? Or would that have changed things?

Because what they're effectively doing now is discontinuing support - quite simply by making support unfeasible.

 

[wgirwin]

Replacement panel prices are why lots of us owners are cleaning their panels rather than replacing them or upgrading. Some (many) of us stretch the budget fairly hard in pursuit of great sound. I had to start with second hand units to get here. Other folks can afford the toll. MLs are heading further into the esoteric world.

 

[JonFo]

I will say this about the replacement panels: Yes, expensive, but these new versions (2006 onward) will outlast the originals from the '90s. My Monolith panels are now 12+ years old, and they sound and measure just as good as the day they were installed. My experienced guess is they will last 25+ years.

Heck, the panels on my 1993 Sequel IIb are 27 years old, and while visibly and measurably not as good as new, they are within the operating range needed to fulfill their role as rear-speakers in my rig. If I replace them with recently manufactured panels, they would last another 25+ years.

I bought those Sequels new in 1993, for a list price of $3,000, and if my cost to keep them running for another 25+ years is $1,800. Then for under $5K, I'll have enjoyed great ESL sound for half-a-century from them (assuming I'm still around 25 years from now ). So not a bad deal.