Rich, as usual you've succinctly covered the salient points here. Wasn't it during Reagan's administration that funding for treatment of the mentally ill was greatly reduced? One has to wonder if we have been reaping the "rewards" for having cut this funding.
Yes Dave, it's time to raise the issue again
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Rich, as usual you've succinctly covered the salient points here. Wasn't it during Reagan's administration that funding for treatment of the mentally ill was greatly reduced? One has to wonder if we have been reaping the "rewards" for having cut this funding.
Yes, Len, it was. And yes, we have been reaping the "rewards" ever since. Homeless population has skyrocketed and lots of crazies in the community untreated.
Source
I have a suggestion. As opposed to blaming an administration that was in power 30 years ago - how about focusing on today's administration and ask what is this admin going to do? U guys can try and blame a 30 year old admin for problems but you would be better off served focusing on what can be done today and tomorrow. The Reagan admin? Really? Why didn't Clinton do something about it? Why didn't Obama do something about it in his first term? Maybe he will now post Newtown? Let's hope so.
Geeze -- that's pretty sensitive. All we did was comment -- quite unemotionally, I might add -- about something that actually happened (you know, a matter of record), during the Presidency of a revered Republican President, that was relevant to the discussion regarding solutions to these shooting tragedies.
Now, why didn't President Clinton do something about it? Why didn't President Obama do something about it in his first term? Well, for one thing, both were pretty busy working to pass meaningful legislation helpful to the majority of Americans. And defending themselves from over-the-top crazed politicians who were manic to impeach him over a trivial matter (in Clinton's case), and from crazed tea-party extremist radicals who demand a lot more power than they have earned and whose visions of grandeur are far beyond realistic.
In addition, their is an organization of which you may have heard called the National Rifle Association (NRA), who has many politicians scared $hitless that they will spend big $$$$$$ against them in the next election unless they toe the mark and vote as they are told.
Oh yeah, it's really such an easy thing for a President to get done...
Not an emotional response at all len i think there are other colors than blue out there it just does seem that all problems in this country come from some act by the republican party according to some my point was simply that if that iis the case - then you need to really look at your own leadership and question why they werent strong enough to do something
Btw happy new year to all looks like we might have scooted by the fiscal cliff temporarily? Maybe it is more like a fiscal plateau now....
Btw happy new year to all looks like we might have scooted by the fiscal cliff temporarily? Maybe it is more like a fiscal plateau now....
Thanks for the comments. For the record, I do not believe all Republicans are bad folks -- or that all Democrats are the paragons of virtue. However, I do pay attention...
And, I stand ready to review (and reconsider my thinking) any positive action that has emerged from the Republican-controlled House of Representatives since President Obama took office. Maybe it is just me, but all I can seem to recall is that they have honed to near perfection their determination to say "NO!!!" to just about everything -- except to pass meaningless bills such as repealing "ObamaCare" numerous times. What a stupid, stupid waste of time and taxpayer money. Seriously, they have behaved -- and are behaving -- like spoiled little children whose mommies and daddies have given them everything they ever wanted. Just Sickening.
Their behavior in the Senate is not much better. McConnell just blocks everything there as well, since Republicans have demanded that 60 votes are needed to pass any legislation they oppose, and that is hardly possible to achieve.
Where is the willingness to compromise? Where are the Statesmen? Long-time members are quitting both chambers due to the poisonous atmosphere that now exists. Sad, and very unhealthy for our Country.
Hope this New Year turns out Happy for all, and especially for our Country.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi guys,
Can we please stay on topic and remain respectful?
Thanks so much.
Gordon
Can we please stay on topic and remain respectful?
Thanks so much.
Gordon
Thanks, Gordon. Couldn't agree more.
Perhaps we can start by agreeing to stop using the word "hatred" when posting...
Thanks Gordon for the 'police' job !! .........Gents, I've done a little housekeeping here in hopes of keeping this thread open for civil discussion.
Rich brings up a very valid point with regards to mental illness and gun violence in this country. The recent tragedy in upstate NY (Webster) hits close to home for me. My nephew, a paid fire fighter for the county of Monroe was a responder as well as one who assisted in the training of those young volunters that lost their lives to that senseless act of violence. Now Rich, earlier I asked you about our present judicial system and gun violence and while I agree with your rebuttal of going after the 'source' rather than treating the 'reaction' , this crime smacks of a need to address both IMO.
What I have a tough time with is how did this mentally disturbed individual who twenty years ago blugeoned his Grandmother to death with a hammer get to plea bargin his way from first degree murder to manslaughter, serve less than twenty years and be allowed back into society ???? With respect to his recent gunning down of the inocent firefighters it is my understanding that a female friend purchased the weapons legally and then allowed him to take the guns , ie a 'straw purchase'. I firmly believe we need to get seriously tough with this kind of crime.
Rich brings up a very valid point with regards to mental illness and gun violence in this country. The recent tragedy in upstate NY (Webster) hits close to home for me. My nephew, a paid fire fighter for the county of Monroe was a responder as well as one who assisted in the training of those young volunters that lost their lives to that senseless act of violence. Now Rich, earlier I asked you about our present judicial system and gun violence and while I agree with your rebuttal of going after the 'source' rather than treating the 'reaction' , this crime smacks of a need to address both IMO.
What I have a tough time with is how did this mentally disturbed individual who twenty years ago blugeoned his Grandmother to death with a hammer get to plea bargin his way from first degree murder to manslaughter, serve less than twenty years and be allowed back into society ???? With respect to his recent gunning down of the inocent firefighters it is my understanding that a female friend purchased the weapons legally and then allowed him to take the guns , ie a 'straw purchase'. I firmly believe we need to get seriously tough with this kind of crime.
Agreed, Gordon. And I don't know the facts of that case. But I do know that sometimes it just comes down to the fact that the prosecutor doesn't have the evidence to prove the greater charge beyond a reasonable doubt, so they have to compromise on the lesser charge vs. letting the guy walk completely free.
I agree. And this is what I meant by strict liability for gun owners. If you have a gun stolen and don't report it, or if you sell a weapon illegally, then you are held as an accessory to any crime committed with your firearm.
The Prez has a task force on this correct? I thought there was mention of a timeframe as to when thoughts might be put into action? I just don't recall the specifics of that... I will be real interested to hear what comes out of this. Maybe it is buried in the thread somewhere....
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
timm,
Biden is heading. Recommendations within a month.
Rich, the lady who provided the firearms to the up state NY firefighter killer has been arrested.
GG
Biden is heading. Recommendations within a month.
Rich, the lady who provided the firearms to the up state NY firefighter killer has been arrested.
GG
hopefully NY State will set a precident with this women !
Kevin
Well-known member
That article fails to mention that in the 1960's and 70's, it was much easier for a psychiatrist to have an individual committed when they sensed they were either a danger to themselves or others. The ACLU has fought hard against state laws seeking to make involuntary commitment or treatment easier. http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/myths/aclu-mental-health-liberties.html Throwing money at something isn't always a solution to a problem, look at how well our 'war on drugs' has gone. I have read many articles suggesting that the Arizona shooter was known by many in the neighborhood to be dangerous, but people were powerless to do anything under existing laws protecting the rights of the insane. It's hard to convince a person, especially since they are already 'crazy', to seek treatment. In their own mind, you're the one with the problems. This latest CT shooter is speculated to have gone on his rampage because his mother was seeking to have him committed.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Spoke with my cousin last night in Boston. She's licensed / employed by the State, in psychiatric care, to evaluate patients who potentially pose a danger to themselves and society.
Absent proof that a patient will pose said serious / life threatening risk within a ten hour period if released, public health services have little choice or control of the individual.
And yes, the stipend is $85 / hour.
GG
Absent proof that a patient will pose said serious / life threatening risk within a ten hour period if released, public health services have little choice or control of the individual.
And yes, the stipend is $85 / hour.
GG
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
Rich, I think you nailed it with "... strict liability for gun owners. We need to have laws requiring guns be kept locked up when not in use. We need laws requiring gun owners to immediately report theft of their firearms (with serious criminal penalties if they don't do so within a reasonable time). And we need a strict liability accessory law. Meaning that if your gun is used by someone else in the commission of a crime, then you are charged as an accessory to the crime." I had said something very similar to my ultra right wing family member a couple of weeks ago. It just makes sense. It takes no "rights" away from anyone, but places more responsibility on gun owners.
1) Laws requiring guns be kept locked up when not in use.
Many argue that if guns are locked up then they can't be used for home protection. That's not true. There are many types of gun safes that allow for quick entry via an instant fingerprint check, or quick combination entry.
2) Immediately report theft.
Who can really argue with this? Oh, super right wing paranoia types who think the government's sole job is to entrap its citizens.
3) Strict liability accessory law.
This one may be the biggest stickler, but is entirely doable. For instance, is it right to prosecute someone who had their guns under lock and key, but someone got to them anyway? I think there are many fine points to work out for this to be effective, but it shouldn't be too difficult to work out and is definitely key, IMO, for an attitudinal readjustment that is sorely needed.
Something else to consider...
All gun sales go through a brokerage center (could be a gun dealership or some other entity?), whose job is to verify backgrounds of potential buyers. Sure, it's a hassle, but it would protect the seller from being prosecuted if the buyer turns out to be a mental case. I'm not sure how this would work, but it something to think about.
1) Laws requiring guns be kept locked up when not in use.
Many argue that if guns are locked up then they can't be used for home protection. That's not true. There are many types of gun safes that allow for quick entry via an instant fingerprint check, or quick combination entry.
2) Immediately report theft.
Who can really argue with this? Oh, super right wing paranoia types who think the government's sole job is to entrap its citizens.
3) Strict liability accessory law.
This one may be the biggest stickler, but is entirely doable. For instance, is it right to prosecute someone who had their guns under lock and key, but someone got to them anyway? I think there are many fine points to work out for this to be effective, but it shouldn't be too difficult to work out and is definitely key, IMO, for an attitudinal readjustment that is sorely needed.
Something else to consider...
All gun sales go through a brokerage center (could be a gun dealership or some other entity?), whose job is to verify backgrounds of potential buyers. Sure, it's a hassle, but it would protect the seller from being prosecuted if the buyer turns out to be a mental case. I'm not sure how this would work, but it something to think about.
zaphod
Well-known member
Steve - i sort of put 2 and 2 together in my head and combined your point 3 with your last paragraph.
should sellers of guns also be considered as a part of a strict liability accessory law? That is, if you sell a gun to someone who fails a background check, should you as a seller be held culpable for the downstream crimes?
Not to derail, but up here in Canada we have laws that hold responsible the person who serves a drink to someone who is in a DUI accident. I see a parallelism between this thread and those laws.
should sellers of guns also be considered as a part of a strict liability accessory law? That is, if you sell a gun to someone who fails a background check, should you as a seller be held culpable for the downstream crimes?
Not to derail, but up here in Canada we have laws that hold responsible the person who serves a drink to someone who is in a DUI accident. I see a parallelism between this thread and those laws.
amey01
Well-known member
Absolutely! It does work here. Serial numbers are recorded so it is known who has what gun. And it is a requirement of sale that buyers must be licenced and background-checked.
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
Yes. That's my point. The seller's protection is the background check; that's the reason for the brokerage center. There has to be accountability for the seller's lack of doing a background check. We've got to get away from just selling a gun to anyone, like what happens at gun shows, for instance.
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
I agree with that. It would be a monumental task to get everyone who currently owns guns to be background checked, though. The requirement for background checks for all future sales is a start.
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