when will new CLX debut at CES?
- Thread starter longhorn
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Don't hold your breath, you might turn purple ! Gut feeling tells me it will be CEDIA or beyond.
When is CEDIA, and where this year?
MiTT
Super User
I think it's going to be in Denver again in Mid-September
roberto
Well-known member
Hola chicos...no pics from Vegas...sorry!...they did not bring anything, we, the international distribuitors had a nice dinner meal with the President, Mr. Mike Lyons, talked a lot of the new products that are comming, got a big hugh from Mr. Soderberg and Mr. Penrod, as always, super gentlemen!!!. and that was all...we have to wait a little bit longer...sorry guys, I feel the same!
Happy listening,
Roberto.
I don't know about you guys, but to me this is almost getting embarrassing. How long have they been working on this speaker? A year ago they were promising us a demo at the Nat'l get-together this past summer. They supposedly had them at Munich last year, albeit not in their final form (obviously). Maybe Paulo M's comment that they were "ugly" sent the designers back to the drawing board. 
I commend them for not bringing out a product before it is ready, but at some point you have to wonder how good their development team is and how committed they are to this project? Maybe they are too busy revamping the "lifestyle" series to put much time into the CLX? Or maybe it is just too difficult to improve on the original. Perhaps they could just release a CLS III with an X-stat panel and be done with it.
I commend them for not bringing out a product before it is ready, but at some point you have to wonder how good their development team is and how committed they are to this project? Maybe they are too busy revamping the "lifestyle" series to put much time into the CLX? Or maybe it is just too difficult to improve on the original. Perhaps they could just release a CLS III with an X-stat panel and be done with it.
Roberto, what new products exactly? And for what segment of the market. Was the word B-O-S-E mentioned?
eknuds01
Well-known member
Do you guys think the CLX is being delayed because the Summit was released not that long ago? I would think the market would be somewhat saturated if ML released the Summit and CLX at about the same time. It's clear the Summit is ML's flagship speaker, and maybe ML didn't want to drop two speakers on the market both of which would command prices over 11k/pair.
Now, I don't know how long the Summit has been out (maybe a few years already) but I guessing it will be another 1-2 years before the CLX is released.
You might even see a Summit i come out first...
Now, I don't know how long the Summit has been out (maybe a few years already) but I guessing it will be another 1-2 years before the CLX is released.
You might even see a Summit i come out first...
Diamonds
Well-known member
I will tell you that 11k was very reasonable at CES for a pair of speakers. Things were mighty expensive.
I commend them for not bringing out a product before it is ready, but at some point you have to wonder how good their development team is and how committed they are to this project? Maybe they are too busy revamping the "lifestyle" series to put much time into the CLX? Or maybe it is just too difficult to improve on the original. Perhaps they could just release a CLS III with an X-stat panel and be done with it.
I think you are on to it, Rich. It won't be easy to substantially improve on the CLS without making major changes to the design. Based on the Gayle Sanders interview about the nature of today's speaker market, I suspect that making the CLX much bigger than the CLS was not a design priority and that tends to constrain what they can do with it. On the other hand, Sound Labs has gone in that direction-- the latest top of the line Sound Labs full range electrostatic loudspeakers are GIGANTIC!
homage a CLS
If I were going to 'reintroduce' the CLS, it could be, as someone mentioned, a CLS III; a further evolved CLS IIz. I think I would frown on an entirely new design approach that simply 'referenced' the original CLS line in its name. The CLS line, as it was when production stopped in 1995(?) remains a solid contender in today's market. Basically, power up the ol' assembly line and let 'er rip!! OK, I admit it would be foolish not to make a few changes first:
1. Update the CLS's so called 'full-range' panel and make it a true full range panel (like the SoundLab) using the high-tech fabrication techniques and tighter tolerances now employed to make the Summit/Vantage/Vista panels. Doing so would enable the panels to be a bit smaller yet with full bass output.
2. Then give the electroncs module a similar high-tech makeover. Voltages could be increased, with better parts quality throughout: transformers, capacitors, wiring, binding posts. Maybe include (or at least make available) an integral stand, which the panels so desperately need, IMO.
The reason the top model SoundLab just keeps gertting bigger and bigger is because their electostatic elements have not been improved significantly since day #1. So to squeeze more performance out of them, they have to keep adding more and more little elements.
ML took a different approach. They improved on their original design by stretching the diaphragm tighter, reducing the gap between the stators, and strengthening the panel frame -- all very important improvements! It seems to me that applying these improvements to a single membrane, full range electrostatic panel would be the realization of a dream. (Even the Statement, in its present form, still requires a subwoofer!)
The CLS panel is one of those rare expressions of a pure technology -- of 'form follows function' as Frank Lloyd Wright used to say. I say tune it up, dial it in, and let it be. "Great art only happens if you know when to stop!"
If I were going to 'reintroduce' the CLS, it could be, as someone mentioned, a CLS III; a further evolved CLS IIz. I think I would frown on an entirely new design approach that simply 'referenced' the original CLS line in its name. The CLS line, as it was when production stopped in 1995(?) remains a solid contender in today's market. Basically, power up the ol' assembly line and let 'er rip!! OK, I admit it would be foolish not to make a few changes first:
1. Update the CLS's so called 'full-range' panel and make it a true full range panel (like the SoundLab) using the high-tech fabrication techniques and tighter tolerances now employed to make the Summit/Vantage/Vista panels. Doing so would enable the panels to be a bit smaller yet with full bass output.
2. Then give the electroncs module a similar high-tech makeover. Voltages could be increased, with better parts quality throughout: transformers, capacitors, wiring, binding posts. Maybe include (or at least make available) an integral stand, which the panels so desperately need, IMO.
The reason the top model SoundLab just keeps gertting bigger and bigger is because their electostatic elements have not been improved significantly since day #1. So to squeeze more performance out of them, they have to keep adding more and more little elements.
ML took a different approach. They improved on their original design by stretching the diaphragm tighter, reducing the gap between the stators, and strengthening the panel frame -- all very important improvements! It seems to me that applying these improvements to a single membrane, full range electrostatic panel would be the realization of a dream. (Even the Statement, in its present form, still requires a subwoofer!)
The CLS panel is one of those rare expressions of a pure technology -- of 'form follows function' as Frank Lloyd Wright used to say. I say tune it up, dial it in, and let it be. "Great art only happens if you know when to stop!"
Neil, I agree materials and processes have improved but I think the fundamental trade-offs in electrostatic speaker design -- stator spacing, panel size and form, bias voltage, etc. -- have tended to constrain what is practically achievable. All of these factors were explored systematically by folks like Peter Walker at Quad and later by the folks at Martin Logan, among others. I wonder whether the advances in materials and processes can overcome the limitations in performance, especially in terms of substantially improving low frequency response and power handling, to make a new, full range ESL product worth marketing.
I am not an expert on Sound Labs designs but a quick look at their web site reveals that they are advertising some new technologies ("pure copper diffusion ring", "PX technology"). Notwithstanding, I do know that one way to deal with some of the performance trade-offs in ESL speaker design is to make the panels bigger (a brute force approach to be sure). The drawbacks of this approach include the limited appeal of such monsters and their high cost.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them introduce a CLX that is a big improvement over the good old CLS. But I wonder what form that product might take and whether it might be 'out-of-this-world' expensive!!
Diamonds
Well-known member
I heard the Soundlab room. Boring!!!
SundayNiagara
Well-known member
It ain't ready yet!
The thing about the ML design (vs. the Soundlab design) is that with the ML panels, whatever the panel size, it's ALL membrane! With a SoundLab, I'd guess 50% of the panel is membrane while the rest of the panel area is composed of the frame around each little element and the matrix into which each element is mounted. It's the original approach to building an electrostatic driver, and its developmental possibilities have IMO been pretty well exhausted.
The curvilinear one piece diaphragm has lots of room for improvement. Stronger lighter more conductive membranes, allowing higher voltages, producing higher sensitivity. The Summit panel is already 92dB to the CLS's 86dB!
Anyway, the bottom line is no one will know 'til somebody tries. The original CLS is fine as is (with a little help from a ML Depth ;0) The problem (back in '95) was it couldn't be made any better without making it a lot bigger -- and from making it to marketing it, it just wasn't gonna fly. Today it can be made both smallerand better; or how about the same size but stupendous!?
The curvilinear one piece diaphragm has lots of room for improvement. Stronger lighter more conductive membranes, allowing higher voltages, producing higher sensitivity. The Summit panel is already 92dB to the CLS's 86dB!
Anyway, the bottom line is no one will know 'til somebody tries. The original CLS is fine as is (with a little help from a ML Depth ;0) The problem (back in '95) was it couldn't be made any better without making it a lot bigger -- and from making it to marketing it, it just wasn't gonna fly. Today it can be made both smallerand better; or how about the same size but stupendous!?
kwr
Well-known member
Hi Diamonds,
Could you expand a little - the Soundlab demo last year was considered a standout by many. As I recall Pass amplification, doubled up Majestics and Isomike recordings from Ray Kimber. What was going on this year?
Kevin
I am happy with my CLS but if that is what they can do to improve the speaker, I am all for it!! :rocker:
Diamonds
Well-known member
Because I did not care for the room I do not remember the assoicated electronics they were using or which speaker they had there. It just sounded lifeless compared to other systems that were there. I was not captivated by the music or did I have any emotion towards the music or the system. Maybe just not for me.
The very next room I went to and could not leave was the Sumiko room who had the following equipment:
Vienna Acoustics (not yet released 25k price tag)
Rel big boy sub
ARC 210 mono blocs
ARC 3
SME 30/10
CDP ???? (I can't remember)
This room was captivating, emotional and truly stunning. I did not want to leave and I must have heard 10 tracks in this room.
The next room was the Lamm (135K for the mono blocs) room and all I can say is WOW!!! Let's put it this way. I am shopping for a pair of LAMM mono blocs (the 23K or 30K models) and their top end Preamp next week. I heard them in the Gershamn Room (23K mono blocs) as well and they were stunning. Like nothing I have heard.
The Sound Labs sounded nothing like these other two rooms.
My opinion...
kwr
Well-known member
Thanks Diamonds - appreciate your time. Australia is a long way from the CES.
Kevin
Kevin
