What will the new CLX do that the Summit does not?

[MiTT]

I have spoken to someone who has actually seen the CLX and has first hand knowledge of it - but I have been sworn to secrecy and will honor that committment. I will say that some of the above would appear to be acurate based upon what was shared with me.

The important thing to me is that for those like me who never had a chance to own the CLS, there may be a new speaker to rival it. I believe it also reaffirms Martin Logans committment to high end 2 channel audio and NOT a single focus on HT or "lifestyle" products. As a true audiophile that alone makes me happy whether I ever end up with a pair of CLX's or not.

 

[mosttoysrk]

Sorry if I am taking this topic a little off course but last week Wilson Audio and Classe was at one of our "high end" audio stores to demonstrate their products. The price for the Wilsons was 40k and up. I was shocked, 20k sounds very expensive compared to the "old" CLS price point but within reason with the way super high end is priced now.
Crazy.....

 

[longhorn]

Thanks for the replys. To those of you who have the CLS,and have listened to the Summits,is the wide soundstage the same and is the sweet spot larger or smaller? Is it safe to assume the CLS plays louder and has higher dynamics do the size of its panel?

 

[Brad225]

I have CLSIIz's powered with all tubes and have never heard them with SS. I have heard 2 sets of Summits powered with SS.
To my ears the CLS's completly disapear with the music. Huge sound stage and open placement of instruments and voices.

What I remember is the Summits had a some what smaller sound stage but each image of instruments and voices was stronger. I was somewhat aware of the speakers but It could have been because I had never heard or seen them before so part of my focus would have been on them.
I would guess some of this is the speaker and some the SS equipment driving them. They were obviously in different rooms so there is really no way to know unless one of us is willing to move our speakers and that is unlikely to happen.

I don't listen to loud music so I can't speak for the the loudness factor. If I had to make a guess, I don't think my CLS's would sound as good loud as the Summits. I have no technical facts for this just personal observation.

I don't think rock music sounds as good with my CLS as the small amount I heard with the Summits.

That said, rock music has never been my choice for listening, so any CDs I have may not be very good from the recording quality stand point.

For me I like the sound of the CLS's with my tubes. That doesn't mean I thinks they are better speakers, just a different sound that I prefer.

I hope this helps. I'm sure others that have heard many more CLS / Summit setups or owned both will post also.

 

[nsgarch]

I pretty much agree with Jeff's observations, and would just like to add a few comments:

What I know of the CLX is basically what has been said so far. Imagine a Summit with a wider panel and very heavy electronics box at the bottom. This is what the CLX will be. The heavy electronics box is for stability and for the electronics. The panel will be wider than the Summit. From what I have gotten it will be like two panels separated where there is a "bass panel" of sorts and then the regular stat panel we are used to in one frame.

. . . . . . and no woofers or ss amp to drive them, correct? Also, the two ESL elements in one frame is interesting news

Now "hint hint hint" the CLX will debut in Germany this April. I would assume (I hate that word) around June/summertime we will see it here in the U.S.

I'll bet they're doing that to allow for making any changes before introducing the 'final' version in the US.

I know I have said this before but one of the compelling reasons why the CLS was discontinued was not so much a technology issue but a business one. The last year it was in production I believe they sold two!! For a business to survive there has to be more. My suggestion all along was the CLS should be a custom order and/or that ML should offer an upgraded electronics package with the new XStat panel. I believe there is a small niche market for that but I also believe this would be a more profitable venture. If this did pan out, I would have then thought about releasing the CLX not the way they are doing it now.

Interesting points. Let me present a different POV: The decade from '83 to '93 was (first of all) about digital and CD's. And about solid state everything, and big bass. So the ML hybrids were a 'perfect' product for that time, but not the CLS. In the last ten years though, we've seen a marked resurgence of public as well as audiophile interest in tube gear and especially vinyl LP's. (Did anyone see the piece on new vinyl pressing plants last Sunday on CBS?) We've also seen a resurgence of interest in the CLS in this forum -- how to set them up, best amps to use, upgrades, tweaks, and rehab etc. I wonder if the folks at ML follow these forums and discussions -- McIntosh for example not only follows, but contributes to their forum on Audiokarma. Anyway, my point is that there seems to be a new and healthy interest in the full-range electrostat once again (for instance, there are new smaller Soundlabs models -- and they're not hybrids either) and it seems to me it would be so inexpensive (and therefore less risky) for MartinLogan to begin producing an 'improved' CLS III, priced somewhere between a Summit and a Vantage. I think they'd sell thousands of them. And I totally agree with Jeff when he says

Personally,I think the CLX is a gamble and may fall hard.

. . . . . and that would be tragic because it would also kill any re-examination of the CLS! I think what ML is missing here is the fact that the CLS was an almost perfect loudpeaker when they discontinued making it. And what it needs right now (is love, sweet love ) and just a little R + D -- perhaps smaller and with better bass extension too! If Magnepan and Apogee can do it with magnets and ribbons, ML should be able to do it with stats.

As I said before, I will not give up my CLS and Depth combo. I believe this is the best overall, compromises included, combination for me.

I agree, and want to add that the Depth was absolutely made for the CLS. It may not have been intentional on ML's part, yet never in 17 years has my system excited people the way it does now.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Longhorn,

I would say the Summits are closer to the soundstage that the CLS's produce than any other current model. I would say the Summits are "brighter" not shrill but brighter due to the new xStat technology.

Does it play louder, well that is subjective. The CLS is a harder speaker to drive than the Summit. I think the sweet spot is larger on the CLS compared to the Summit but that is my opinion.

Just some more thoughts


Jeff

 

[David Matz]

What I know of the CLX is basically what has been said so far. Imagine a Summit with a wider panel and very heavy electronics box at the bottom. This is what the CLX will be. The heavy electronics box is for stability and for the electronics. The panel will be wider than the Summit. From what I have gotten it will be like two panels separated where there is a "bass panel" of sorts and then the regular stat panel we are used to in one frame.

My guess is anywhere from $16K to $20K leaning more towards $20K. Now I believe ML knows there will be a small/limited market for this speaker and that "typically" audiophiles in Europe are not the kind of "bass thumpers" that Americans typically represent. A generalization, yes, but look at the difference of European speaker manufacturers and American and the difference in sound they "typically" create/produce.

Now "hint hint hint" the CLX will debut in Germany this April. I would assume (I hate that word) around June/summertime we will see it here in the U.S.

I know I have said this before but one of the compelling reasons why the CLS was discontinued was not so much a technology issue but a business one. The last year it was in production I believe they sold two!! For a business to survive there has to be more. My suggestion all along was the CLS should be a custom order and/or that ML should offer an upgraded electronics package with the new XStat panel. I believe there is a small niche market for that but I also believe this would be a more profitable venture. If this did pan out, I would have then thought about releasing the CLX not the way they are doing it now.

Personally,I think the CLX is a gamble and may fall hard. Lets face it, how many of us can justify and/or afford $20k for a speaker and for one that will be wider than a Summit, harder to place in a room, "tune" in the room and probably, a harder sell to a significant other. Lets just say that 20 of us here bought the CLX over the next two years, I do not think ML will consider this a big seller and then send to the same place the StatementE2 has gone, custom order only where the price will be more.

As I said before, I will not give up my CLS and Depth combo. I believe this is the best overall, compromises included, combination for me. There are others here who have various versions of CLS's with different combinations that work for them too. I believe the CLS is not for everyone or is it the holy grail. I would suggest for those who are lusting over the CLX to listen to a CLS and then decide if it is right for you.

Just some thoughts


Jeff

Jeff,

I think your focus on economics is right on. However, the audiophile market has changed over the last 10-15 years. It has followed the hour-glass economy just like other sectors. A guy may want to drive a 3 series BMW, and to do that, he may go Sams club and buy a bunch of cheap food (Ramen!) to afford the exprensive car. Anyone stuck in the middle, such as the department stores, have been hurting.

It is the same way in audio. Most of the stuff that gets the rave reviews and Stereophile class A ratings is in the stratosphere. There are fewer and fewer mid-high end products. The typical audiophile market is a rich old man. For many of those guys, a price is a signal for quality. The music just sounds that bit much better when there is an extra 0 at the end of the price tag. It seems to me that ML is trying to get some of those dollars.

We have had other discussions about how ML has moved to the lower parts of the hourglass. Fortunately, ML has the Vantage and the Vista which are in that mid-high end market.

 

[ak2000]

I don't have the intricate knowledge of some on this thread :bowdown:
however, I will say that the speakers I've heard that I would consider the BEST, those with the largest soundstage, most accurate instrumentation, most natural and transparent sound, were full range planar type speakers, i.e. Large MLs, Large Acoustats, and Large Apogees.

That being the case I would be most interested to hear a properly set up pair of modern full range panels from Martin Logan. IME20k is historically low for a pair of top-of-the-line audiophile grade speakers.

 

[Joey_V]

That being the case I would be most interested to hear a properly set up pair of modern full range panels from Martin Logan. IME20k is historically low for a pair of top-of-the-line audiophile grade speakers.

True that, but remember that these are panels and they are relatively inexpensive compared to other speaker methodologies. $20K for a single panel system is a lot.

 

[risabet]

Imagine if you will that the major cost in a dynamic speaker system is the cabinet (up to 50% of wholesale) and you can quickly see that 20K for a panel speaker, a speaker with no cabinet, a minimal x-over and the electronics box, historically the cheapest part of a speaker, is really quite expensive.

 

[tonepub]

The Summit definitely has more dynamic capability than the CLS, but the CLS was really a magic speaker because they were full range. Still one of the most amazing speakers I've ever lived with. If I had another room, I'd build a system around a pair and keep my Summits in the other room!

Never noticed the "midbass thinness" when I had mine!

I also wish they were just bringing out an upgraded CLS with their newest panel technology...

Going out there soon to see the new speaker when it's ready though. Can't wait!

 

[ak2000]

I understand what you are saying in terms of cost. However, the cost of parts used does not define to total cost of producing the item, especially in something as low production as this will likely be. Really a matter of perceived value and I stand by my statement that 20k is low for a set of truly high end speakers.

 

[Joey_V]

I understand what you are saying in terms of cost. However, the cost of parts used does not define to total cost of producing the item, especially in something as low production as this will likely be. Really a matter of perceived value and I stand by my statement that 20k is low for a set of truly high end speakers.

Regardless of perceived value, I do not think that they will charge double the Summits for the CLX if it is a single panel without a crossover. If you were at the factory tour, you would know how simple the implementation of the stat panel is relative to the man hours required to construct the cabinet and the woofer drivers.

 

[ak2000]

Pure speculation without an official announcement anyway. Additional cost I was referring to was not other materials, but rather R&D, engineering, actual production costs.

 

[Rich]

Really a matter of perceived value and I stand by my statement that 20k is low for a set of truly high end speakers.

I disagree. The people that might be inclined to buy these speakers won't generally be comparing them to Wilsons and other $40,000 plus box speakers. They will be comparing them to other Martin Logans (the current top-of-the-line production model of which costs only $11 k) and other panel speakers, such as Quad, Final Sound, Sanders Sound, and Maggies. When there are so many great sounding planar speakers available at reasonable prices, I just don't think the CLX is going to find much market share at the $20 k price point. The only planar speakers at those price points that I am aware of are the SoundLabs, and they are huge speakers that command a fairly small market share.

I know that I wouldn't even consider upgrading from my Summits at that price point. Why pay double the money for an incremental increase in quality? I just don't believe they will come close to the leap in quality over the Summits to justify that kind of price increase.

I agree that ML probably would have done much better to try to spend a little money and time upgrading the original design and producing a CLS III within a reasonable budget rather than going for such an expensive new design as it appears the CLX may be.

 

[sleepysurf]

My gut feeling is the CLX will be the final "make it or break it" effort for ML in the "high end" arena. If it succeeds, I think the new "ownership" will continue investing R&D $$ to continue developing the "ESL Line". If it fails, I fear ML will forever languish in the upper mid-fi niche, just introducing more Asian manufactured "Designer Line" products.

 

[nsgarch]

Gosh, that's a depressing thought! Anyway, leaving pricing aside for a second, and assuming the CLX is, in fact, a full-range electrostat, does it have any competition beside the big Soundlabs? Because that is the speaker with which it will be compared, and the market it will seek. If that's where ML is headed with this effort, I truly hope they succeed.:cheers:

My gut feeling is the CLX will be the final "make it or break it" effort for ML in the "high end" arena. If it succeeds, I think the new "ownership" will continue investing R&D $$ to continue developing the "ESL Line". If it fails, I fear ML will forever languish in the upper mid-fi niche, just introducing more Asian manufactured "Designer Line" products.

 

[Joey_V]

Pure speculation without an official announcement anyway. Additional cost I was referring to was not other materials, but rather R&D, engineering, actual production costs.

You'd be surprised how much some of us know about the CLX. Some here know a lot more than others but can't say a thing.

 

[Rich]

Anyway, leaving pricing aside for a second, and assuming the CLX is, in fact, a full-range electrostat, does it have any competition beside the big Soundlabs? Because that is the speaker with which it will be compared, and the market it will seek.

I disagree with you on this, Neil. Because there are so few full-range ESLs out there, I don't think potential customers will be comparing the CLX to those only. Besides owners of the CLS series and Sound Labs owners, most planar speaker aficionados who may be interested in the CLX will be comparing them to their current or former hybrid ESL speakers.

I am a prime example of this type of market. I have never heard the CLS or any other full range electrostat. But I am deeply familiar with the sound of the Prodigy, the Ascent, and the Summit. I would definitely be interested in the CLX, but at twice the price of the Prodigy and Summit (when each was introduced), they would have to blow the doors off of those speakers for me to even begin to consider purchasing them. I don't really see that happening.

All I'm saying is that unless the CLX seriously outperforms the great hybrid ESL and other planar speakers out there that cost anywhere from $5 k to $15 k, then it is going to garner very little market share and die a quick death at the $20 k price point.

 

[tonepub]

Kind of hard to say until we can actually hear them.

They might be amazing, and if I were a betting man
I'd be betting on ML for this one.

It may not be "better" it may be "different" but different
in a way that some really like....