What will the new CLX do that the Summit does not?

[C.A.P]

My gut feeling is the CLX will be the final "make it or break it" effort for ML in the "high end" arena. If it succeeds, I think the new "ownership" will continue investing R&D $$ to continue developing the "ESL Line". If it fails, I fear ML will forever languish in the upper mid-fi niche, just introducing more Asian manufactured "Designer Line" products.

I agree 100% and think that is why the hold up of this design was halted. I think that they are really thinking the idea out as to will the cost to make and manufacture these be advantageous. Martin Logan is owned by a bigger company and they want volume to the masses.This CLX as nostalgic as it may be is and will be a costly project. The 2 chanel stereo system is a thing of the past and manufactures are moving that way. $$$$ to the masses.

I disagree with you on this, Neil. Because there are so few full-range ESLs out there, I don't think potential customers will be comparing the CLX to those only. Besides owners of the CLS series and Sound Labs owners, most planar speaker aficionados who may be interested in the CLX will be comparing them to their current or former hybrid ESL speakers.


I am a prime example of this type of market. I have never heard the CLS or any other full range electrostat. But I am deeply familiar with the sound of the Prodigy, the Ascent, and the Summit. I would definitely be interested in the CLX, but at twice the price of the Prodigy and Summit (when each was introduced), they would have to blow the doors off of those speakers for me to even begin to consider purchasing them. I don't really see that happening.

All I'm saying is that unless the CLX seriously outperforms the great hybrid ESL and other planar speakers out there that cost anywhere from $5 k to $15 k, then it is going to garner very little market share and die a quick death at the $20 k price point.

EXACTLY.

As good as the CLS sounded, it earned not near the sales of the Quest or Re-Quest when they were on the market. The full range sound did not lend it self to the average purchaser. That is the Adcom , NAD, Dennon reciever type of purchaser. Now the Big system aficionados and system builders are different. CAN the CLS sound magical. YES . In the average system NO. Do you think Martin Logan knows this? YES! We are a dying breed. We make up very little market. Why spend thousands of dolors on a design that may only sell under 10,000 units at best when you can sell 200,000 units to the masses at twice the profit. A prime example is the STATEMENT. Why did they discontinue making it ? No market.

I truly hope they make a new CLX but it better be somewhat affordable and BLOW the doors of any ESL out in its price range. A lot can be done to a tweaked set of old Logans with all we know today.

 

[JonFo]

I will wait and see what the new CLX design really is about and how it sounds before going too deep into whether it’s better or not than current models.

Regardless, I believe that all manufacturers need a ‘halo’ or ‘statement’ (hum, have we heard that before? ) piece that is inspirational as well as aspirational to the community.

So even if the sales base for the CLX is indeed small, the buzz this model can generate, as well as any trickle-down tech, would be good for the brand and ESL product line as a whole.

Also, never underestimate the power of snobbery, we see it all the time in audiophile circles and just as importantly, in the luxury marketplace. The Robb Report readers love to show off large, expensive baubles in their big homes. Wilson Alexandria’s are not really worth what people pay for them, but they are big, bold, expensive (and people know it) statements of the owners net worth.
So sales might actually be pretty good (relatively speaking).

 

[tonepub]

I hate to say it, but you guys really don't understand the high end 2 channel market. It's alive and well. The guys that have the dough for a good system are still out there.

Companies like Wilson, Avalon, SME and quite a few others are doing well and selling everything they can produce.

The dealers that have a good base offering service and support are doing just fine.

I'm sure even if ML sold 500 pairs of CLX's a year it would be a profit center for them, especially because they have the manufacturing expertise and the depth in house to build a speaker like the CLX for 20k rather than the 50k a company that was not as large would have to charge.

So, don't sell the 2ch world short, it's still alive and kicking.

 

[MiTT]

I couldn't agree more Jeff - which was where my comments were coming from. Well said!

 

[Rich]

I hate to say it, but you guys really don't understand the high end 2 channel market. It's alive and well. The guys that have the dough for a good system are still out there.

Jeff, I am not questioning that there is a healthy market at the high end. I understand that there are plenty of folks wealthy enough to plop down $20 k plus for a pair of speakers. I am questioning whether those are the same people that would be specifically interested in a full-range electrostatic speaker from Martin Logan at that price point. There is an awful lot of competition at that price point from some great box speakers. If ML goes in at that price point with the CLX, I don't think they are going to be taking any market share from Wilson, Avalon, et. al. They are going to have to compete for guys like me, who prefer an electrostatic or planar/ribbon speaker and can afford to buy a great one, but who also recognize that there are lots of great ones at lower price points. Again, it all comes back to how good the CLX turns out to be. If it is not leaps and bounds better than the Summit and Prodigy, and the old CLS, then ML won't even be able to compete with their own products.

As for producing them for $20 k vs. $50 k, have you seen what goes into producing an electrostatic panel speaker vs. a box speaker? It is just not that expensive to produce, especially with ML's efficient production line already in place. I expect they should be able to produce one for less than $20 k. I have no idea how many pairs they would have to sell a year to recoup their R&D costs and make a profit, but they are set up for large scale production. If they only sell a few hundred pairs a year, I would imagine it will be considered a failure and will be discontinued rather quickly.

I really hope the CLX is leaps and bounds better than anything ML has produced in the past and is well worth it's price tag. But if it isn't, I just don't see it competing very well in its market niche.

 

[Joey_V]

The build of a pure 'stat speaker w/o crossover is a dream for Martin Logan. It is relatively cheap and easy to do.

The only question mark would be R+D...

IF the CLX costs 20$K, the majority of this cost would have to be attributed to R+D. And even then, I don't recall ML making the Summits $20K when it first debuted considering the radical departure from the Prodigy generation... I'm sure there was a lot of R+D in that speaker as well.

 

[C.A.P]

Jeff, I am not questioning that there is a healthy market at the high end. I understand that there are plenty of folks wealthy enough to plop down $20 k plus for a pair of speakers. I am questioning whether those are the same people that would be specifically interested in a full-range electrostatic speaker from Martin Logan at that price point. There is an awful lot of competition at that price point from some great box speakers. If ML goes in at that price point with the CLX, I don't think they are going to be taking any market share from Wilson, Avalon, et. al. They are going to have to compete for guys like me, who prefer an electrostatic or planar/ribbon speaker and can afford to buy a great one, but who also recognize that there are lots of great ones at lower price points. Again, it all comes back to how good the CLX turns out to be. If it is not leaps and bounds better than the Summit and Prodigy, and the old CLS, then ML won't even be able to compete with their own products.

As for producing them for $20 k vs. $50 k, have you seen what goes into producing an electrostatic panel speaker vs. a box speaker? It is just not that expensive to produce, especially with ML's efficient production line already in place. I expect they should be able to produce one for less than $20 k. I have no idea how many pairs they would have to sell a year to recoup their R&D costs and make a profit, but they are set up for large scale production. If they only sell a few hundred pairs a year, I would imagine it will be considered a failure and will be discontinued rather quickly.

I really hope the CLX is leaps and bounds better than anything ML has produced in the past and is well worth it's price tag. But if it isn't, I just don't see it competing very well in its market niche.

I totally agree!

The build of a pure 'stat speaker w/o crossover is a dream for Martin Logan. It is relatively cheap and easy to do. Joey , If it were that easy to do, they would have. The croseoverless design has been a goal of MANY speaker designers. Impedance and such have presented a issue. Bob Carver did well with his ribbon being a 100hz to 20,000 hz ribbon but it to had a few impedance issues too. A single line source that will play 20 to 20,000 is the dream speaker.

The only question mark would be R+D...

IF the CLX costs 20$K, the majority of this cost would have to be attributed to R+D. I totally agree, the cost of the metal panels is minimal. The Mylar and the spars are all in house design with the same basic make up as the current line. The spacing on the spars and the big panels will be a bit tricky but they could get through it. The crosover is not that complicated. How much can you do with a single line source. They could sell them for under $10 grand and make a killing IMHO. And even then, I don't recall ML making the Summits $20K when it first debuted considering the radical departure from the Prodigy generation... I'm sure there was a lot of R+D in that speaker as well.

The CLX can be a contender at the right price. Price it out of the hands that want it and it will fail. It will need a dedicated sub (The DECENT I) as it has the X-over built in. Will it need 2 . It will sound better. So now you have a $20,000 speaker that needs a sub or a pair of subs that can set ya back $2000 or better each !

If its not a single panel system I see no need for it. A multi panel system or cones with panels will introduce a X-over into the mix. No need for a mini Statement IMHO. Give me a single 2 x 6 panel that will do 24 to 20,000 and then charge me 20K.

 

[Craig]

A prime example is the STATEMENT. Why did they discontinue making it ? No market.

The Statements were also huge and required serious amperage. Even those that had the funds may not have had the very large room needed for Statements and the Monster amps needed to run them.

I wonder how large the CLX would be and what are there power requirements?

 

[Craig]

Tom...How reliable is that source that said the CLX would cost $20.000? Does that include a pair of subs?

 

[tubevibb]

Only way to get No Crossover

I have 4 CLS used panels , My new set up is one SL3 panel for the highs one CLS panel for mid-lows.
The Xourmers are Acoustat thay have two pr interface,one for highs an one for mid-lows.
so the only thing in front of the Xfourmer on the highs one 1ohm 50w .
the only thing in front of the xfourmer on the lows is one 4ohm 50w Paralleled with 2mf pp cap an that it!
No matter what ML CLS interface has a crossover!
TO sound i am geting is the Best i have had out of any ESL.
Now i got $400 in 4 Cls panels $900.in SL3s.
AN the PAnels work great,not one bad panel if you take the panels out the frames output go up maybe 3db,the Bottem an top on the panel is the only glued spots the side are open i even clen the panels froum the sides.

 

[JonFo]

The Statements were also huge and required serious amperage. Even those that had the funds may not have had the very large room needed for Statements and the Monster amps needed to run them.

I wonder how large the CLX would be and what are there power requirements?

The palcement and room size constraints were probably the biggest barrier to ownership of Statement systems, not the cost.

I recall one was supposed to submit the floor plan of the proposed room they were to be deployed in and the factory would either nix the sale, or recommend substantial mods before they would deploy.

Not that it stopped many an installation form going into totally inappropriate rooms. See the 'Super Systems' thread for many examples of poorly deployed Statements.

I tell ya, if I could get my hands on a pair, and then spend another $150K or so on a good room, I could really show what those could do.

The CLX will have less of a placement challenge, but will also require quite specific placement and room size constraints to perform within an optimum envelope.

As for power, my guess is they will require high-amperage >250W amps. With the bass panel being a big ?? as far as current vs voltage demands.

 

[tubevibb]

just so you can see

Here is ML NO Crossover, call it what you well?

 

[Beakman]

Trust me, if ML can sell a pair of $11k Summits with $5k worth of purly esoteric options, They can sell a $20k pair of CLX's no problem. Just figure out what percentage of YOUR yearly income that you've paid for your systems.

 

[nsgarch]

So I think we can all agree it will be under $50k, it won't have a woofer, and it won't need a subwoofer except for HT (like with the Summit). The question will then come down to: does it perform like a CLS but with the rest of the bass frequencies. And of course, how does it compare to that other full range electrostat? (and will it need a big room to image properly, like that other full range electrostat?)

 

[Rich]

Trust me, if ML can sell a pair of $11k Summits with $5k worth of purly esoteric options, They can sell a $20k pair of CLX's no problem. Just figure out what percentage of YOUR yearly income that you've paid for your systems.

Agreed. There is no question they can sell a pair at that price. No question they can sell many pairs at that price. But this is a new product introduction with which they have invested a lot of time (years!) and (most probably) a lot of money on R&D and which has generated a lot of interest from their fan base, judging by the comments in this forum. The question I am raising is whether it will be a successful new product introduction in terms of units sold per year and return on investment.

ML is a business. They are not doing this just for fun or to see if they can do it. They are doing it because they believe there is a market that they can penetrate and make a profit with this product. If they come in with a fantastically-performing product at the right price, then I think it will sell really well and be quite successful. If they come in with a product that is marginally better than their current top-of-the-line model, at close to twice its price, then I think it will sell poorly and ultimately be a failure.

I think ML has reached a point where they are widely distributed and well-known as a producer of great speakers. With that success comes a lot of critical observation of each new product introduction. When they first came out with the new look of the Summits and Vantages, there was a lot of clamor about how awful they looked and sounded, among long-time fans. The CLS has achieved almost cult-like status among ML aficionados. If they don't really nail the mark with the CLX, and they charge a huge premium for it, I think they are going to get slammed and their reputation will take a big hit.

What are you looking at as a potential buyer of the CLX? One pair of speakers - potentially $20,000. Plus ML expects you will buy one or two Depth i's or Descent i's to match with it (these have the optional built-in crossover setting for the CLX). That is $2,000 to $6,000 additional. So you are looking at $22,000 to $26,000 for just your front two channels and sub(s). These are big two-panel beasts too, so you must have the space available and no WAF problems to consider this setup.

Compare that to the option of purchasing a CLS model and a pair of depth subwoofers on the used market. For around $5,000 you would get potentially 90% to 95% of the sound quality of the CLX at 20% of the cost!

Again, I am not saying they won't be able to sell these models. There will certainly be those buyers that will buy them at any cost just because they want the latest/greatest. I am simply questioning whether at the $20,000 price point they can sell enough of them to recoup their R&D and enjoy enough of a profit to make them a successful product. I seriously doubt they will get me to upgrade from my Summits at that price point and I am a consumer that can afford to spend double that amount on a pair of speakers if I want to. But I simply have not heard a pair of speakers that was so much better than the Summits to be worth wasting that extra cash on. I just don't feel the need to spend 100% or 200% more money for an almost imperceptible increase in the quality of sound.

One of the reasons I think the Summits have been so successful is that they improved upon the panel/bass module integration over the Prodigy, generated a smaller footprint with a less imposing speaker, and managed to sell it for the same price as the Prodigy. That was an amazing feat! And they have been rewarded with robust sales. If the CLX comes in at twice the price and is not absolutely freakin' AMAZING, then it is going to fail in the marketplace. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Rich]

. . . and it won't need a subwoofer except for HT (like with the Summit).

If that's the case, then why is ML marketing an optional crossover module for the Descent i and Depth i that is specifically designed for the CLX? It sounds like they assume you will want a subwoofer with this speaker system.

The question will then come down to: does it perform like a CLS but with the rest of the bass frequencies. And of course, how does it compare to that other full range electrostat? (and will it need a big room to image properly, like that other full range electrostat?)

Agreed. Also, what is the market penetration of that other full range electrostat? There are only three pairs of them for sale on the 'gon and two of those are dealer demos. That tells me they don't exactly have a huge market penetration (or that they are so good the folks that buy them never sell them).

 

[nsgarch]

Rich, I agree with everything you say, but still feel the most important part is being left out (and it is unique to ML in this case) and that's the reason for them doing this in the first place. I mean the obvious next step, if there were to be one, would be a bigger and better powered hybrid -- the Super Summit or whatever. The fact that they are going in this direction is very very interesting to me, and indicates that ML is responding to certain perceived (or misperceived?) market opportunities: 1.) there really is no competition for the (big and truly full range) Soundlab (but as you said, is the market really there?) 2.) There is a longstanding and very overtly expressed demand for a 'new' CLS from ML owners (and maybe others too, I don't know about that) and 3.) (I'm just assuming here) they'd like a sexy new flagship icon for the launch of their expanded offerings in the low/mid priced market. Maybe some of you can think of other reasons they decided to do this before or instead of the Super Summit.

 

[C.A.P]

Lots of speculation on all our parts ! Time will tell. I think the CLX will appeal to some but not many ! Not at $20K + with a needed sub. I can get many a sub sat system for far less .......

 

[Rich]

Lots of speculation on all our parts !

No doubt! But that's the fun part, isn't it? Besides, they have left us twiddling our thumbs waiting on this thing for so long . . . what more can we do but speculate. We were promised a demo of this thing at our get-together last summer, but that fell through and now it isn't being released until this fall. At least the fact that they are taking their time shows they know how important it is to get this one right.

Neil, you bring up some great points. I agree that they need/want another flagship model now that the Statements have kind of faded off into the distant past. The CLX could satisfy the CLS fanatics who are craving an updated version and I agree that hopefully they will learn some things from this model that will enable them to bring out some type of "Super Summit" in the future. How about one large panel that goes down to a crossover point at about 30 or 40 hz., and then a sub module like the descent i with built-in internal crossover to take it from there? That's not too far a stretch to go from where they are at now.

 

[C.A.P]

I agree ! It is fun. I like the Idea of a single big BIG panel with clear spars and a sweet wood frame . Like the older statements . Man that was sweet looking !