Well, my BF 210 has a big problem and I purchased it new in July 2021. Here is what it is doing.

[ttocs]

C) BF will NOT work with their new game changing Active Acoustics. This is positively confirmed.

This makes sense. I'm pretty sure it needs room facing drivers.

Opposed drivers, passive radiators, etc, just would confuse things.

 

[Fidji99]

This makes sense. I'm pretty sure it needs room facing drivers.

Opposed drivers, passive radiators, etc, just would confuse things.

Bit more on the topic - I have been in direct contact with Trinnov (one of few companies with that level of support).

Long story short - as many subs as possible, ideally with some level of symmetry and better not that from each other, than in the corners. still passive treatment above 100Hz needed.

Funny part about infrasonic subs, they seem to be new hype. Had chance to hear a demo- this is something completely else.

 

[ttocs]

Bit more on the topic - I have been in direct contact with Trinnov (one of few companies with that level of support).

Long story short - as many subs as possible, ideally with some level of symmetry and better not that from each other, than in the corners. still passive treatment above 100Hz needed.

Great video!!! Thank you very much! I'd seen the earlier video Jon mentions, but this one clears up a lot of things he spoke about in the previous one.

I come away with my original supposition with a modification in term, that single plane subs are preferred. They also should be of the same type/size, otherwise complications arise.

Unlike DBA, which in its strictest sense is very inflexible in setup, the Trinnov system "will work with what you have", and is more flexible in exact placement - and - improves upon DBA by way of the digital processing which takes into account more of the reflections involved, plus, ALL of the subs are used for producing and absorbing. In a traditional DBA, the front subs produce the sound, the rear subs absorb the sound.

I've been experimenting with various subwoofer layouts for the the last month or two. I haven't had the time to invest in all that I want to try, but the quick point to make that showed up immediately is that, using six subs lined up between the front L&R speakers with a gap in the middle for a couple stacked amps, using the four equally spaced subs created a response that had very little seat to seat variation, but when I employed all six with that gap in the middle the SPL at the MLP became LESS by a dB instead of more. This is due to a lobing effect because each group of 3 subs acted like two subs and some cancellation in the middle at the MLP was created. An effect of "steering".

This is a representation of the layout I've been working with.

I'm not trying to create a DBA, just playing with line source type setups. I tried vertical last year and it doesn't work well in my room. This, being horizontal, and using the floor as much as possible, seems initially to work well at the seating area. These images are a bit of an oversimplification because my speakers are toed in quite extremely and the subs at each end are actually spaced outward from how they're shown, but I made these graphics a couple weeks ago for a friend to explain what I was testing.

Trinnov remains my number 1 choice for processing! It's not yet in reach for me though. Of course, I could've bought one this month with what I had to layout for a new furnace and AC system, so, it's really just a matter of life choices.

 

[Leporello]

The new sub was delivered mid morning and the old one was just picked up. The trucking company ABF handled it all. Hats off to them. The driver today was awesome and when I told him about my surgery he offered to bring the sub into the home and even unboxed it for me! Really nice guy too, my kinda guy. He came back later in the day and picked up the old subwoofer. The new one is set up and running great.
I will wait for about another 4 weeks until it is safe for me to lift more weight and then order the PSA subwoofer. Im very glad that Martin Logan did such a great job with customer service. Anyone out there looking to buy new from them, you can be assured that they stand behind their warranty and that they make it easy to service. Just make sure that you buy from an authorized dealer.

Glad to hear your story has a happy ending. Hopefully your problem was a one-off, and you'll have many years of enjoyment from your BF--buzz about better options here notwithstanding. I wish you a speedy recovery so that one day, you'll actually be able to lift the thing.

 

[Leporello]

Great video!!! Thank you very much! I'd seen the earlier video Jon mentions, but this one clears up a lot of things he spoke about in the previous one.

I come away with my original supposition with a modification in term, that single plane subs are preferred. They also should be of the same type/size, otherwise complications arise.

Unlike DBA, which in its strictest sense is very inflexible in setup, the Trinnov system "will work with what you have", and is more flexible in exact placement - and - improves upon DBA by way of the digital processing which takes into account more of the reflections involved, plus, ALL of the subs are used for producing and absorbing. In a traditional DBA, the front subs produce the sound, the rear subs absorb the sound.

I've been experimenting with various subwoofer layouts for the the last month or two. I haven't had the time to invest in all that I want to try, but the quick point to make that showed up immediately is that, using six subs lined up between the front L&R speakers with a gap in the middle for a couple stacked amps, using the four equally spaced subs created a response that had very little seat to seat variation, but when I employed all six with that gap in the middle the SPL at the MLP became LESS by a dB instead of more. This is due to a lobing effect because each group of 3 subs acted like two subs and some cancellation in the middle at the MLP was created. An effect of "steering".

This is a representation of the layout I've been working with.

I'm not trying to create a DBA, just playing with line source type setups. I tried vertical last year and it doesn't work well in my room. This, being horizontal, and using the floor as much as possible, seems initially to work well at the seating area. These images are a bit of an oversimplification because my speakers are toed in quite extremely and the subs at each end are actually spaced outward from how they're shown, but I made these graphics a couple weeks ago for a friend to explain what I was testing.

Trinnov remains my number 1 choice for processing! It's not yet in reach for me though. Of course, I could've bought one this month with what I had to layout for a new furnace and AC system, so, it's really just a matter of life choices.

Here in the northeast a new furnace, when needed, isn't exactly a "life choice"

 

[Robert D]

Glad to hear your story has a happy ending. Hopefully your problem was a one-off, and you'll have many years of enjoyment from your BF--buzz about better options here notwithstanding. I wish you a speedy recovery so that one day, you'll actually be able to lift the thing.

I sure hope this one holds up better. Everything breaks down on me, including my defibrillator and pacemaker system.

Right now I'm dealing with grage door opener control panels going out. 1st one lasted 8 years and the replacement only lasted 7 years. When they go out, they send out signals that randomly opens the door. This last time it opened my garage door exposing my garage to theft. Open all night long. To make matters worse, it opened up my Porshe 911. So not only was the garage open all night, my car was unlocked as well and the hood was popped open.

It's the liftmaster brand. Model 888LM. Just had the new model, the 889LM installed. Hopefully it's better, but I see reviews by others having the same failure.

So moral of the story, all shit breaks down.

 

[user 49612]

A) there is nothing like Trinnov 64, max is 48 ch, with up to 64 outputs (used for bi-tri-quad amping some channels.)
B) talk to people at Trinnov as you might be in for a nasty surprise next year, they are very helpful.
C) BF will NOT work with their new game changing Active Acoustics. This is positively confirmed.

you might want to look elsewhere for AV processor, or get in touch with some professional calibrators, if you insist on BF. Storm Audio and their DiRAC ART might be more suitable, although no idea how it handles dipole speakers. Trinnov works wonders for electrostats.

D) any proper subwoofer system treated with new Trinnov Bass Management will be better in multiples compared to even best subs without. I had a chance to attend their demo in Barcelona.

Just a friendly advice, as I am also in the preparation phase of building new ultimate cost-no-object (almost ) Home theatre. It hurts me to say - but there are MUCH better subs out there, in terms of performance.

@Rich - it is not DBA , although it requires subs on the front and rear wall.

To me BF212 is king of them all. End of discussion, love whatever you want

 

[Robert D]

Shawn got me the ML wireless transmitter/receiver and I have the wires needed for the new sub. I just need to wait another 2 weeks to have my new Power Sound Audio sub built. Once it's all set up I will report back on how it sounds together with tbe BF 210.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I sure hope this one holds up better. Everything breaks down on me, including my defibrillator and pacemaker system.

Right now I'm dealing with grage door opener control panels going out. 1st one lasted 8 years and the replacement only lasted 7 years. When they go out, they send out signals that randomly opens the door. This last time it opened my garage door exposing my garage to theft. Open all night long. To make matters worse, it opened up my Porshe 911. So not only was the garage open all night, my car was unlocked as well and the hood was popped open.

It's the liftmaster brand. Model 888LM. Just had the new model, the 889LM installed. Hopefully it's better, but I see reviews by others having the same failure.

So moral of the story, all shit breaks down.

Uh, that's certainly an interesting note, which I can relate to somewhat.
In all the past houses we had, here in Aus and overseas, every automatic garage door we had went bonkeroos! The motors overheating, wiring corrosion, whatever...
After nearly 15yrs of renting and finally building our new home down under, I opted for a manual garage door. Easy peasy to lift and swing up... no issues. I asked the builder whether we were the only ones in our street to opt for manual doors, he said no there was just one other family. I asked why they chose manual, apparently their last automatic door was a bloody nightmare! Uh.

Next door neighbour has a lovely Honda Type R (very rare color); one night a loud crashing noise came from his garage. I went to assist (was in the middle of the night listening to music...) apparently the motor had given way, bringing the entire roller door crashing on top of his Type-R! He was pretty pissed... and started I said not to worry, it happens only once, just get a manual door, and that's exactly what he did!

Type R fully repaired but it cost him a pretty penny, since the insurance Co. didn't cover the garage door motor... of course they didn't! And that's all she wrote.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Robert D]

Uh, that's certainly an interesting note, which I can relate to somewhat.
In all the past houses we had, here in Aus and overseas, every automatic garage door we had went bonkeroos! The motors overheating, wiring corrosion, whatever...
After nearly 15yrs of renting and finally building our new home down under, I opted for a manual garage door. Easy peasy to lift and swing up... no issues. I asked the builder whether we were the only ones in our street to opt for manual doors, he said no there was just one other family. I asked why they chose manual, apparently their last automatic door was a bloody nightmare! Uh.

Next door neighbour has a lovely Honda Type R (very rare color); one night a loud crashing noise came from his garage. I went to assist (was in the middle of the night listening to music...) apparently the motor had given way, bringing the entire roller door crashing on top of his Type-R! He was pretty pissed... and started I said not to worry, it happens only once, just get a manual door, and that's exactly what he did!

Type R fully repaired but it cost him a pretty penny, since the insurance Co. didn't cover the garage door motor... of course they didn't! And that's all she wrote.
Cheers, RJ

Wow, insurance companies! I'd think that if the car insurance didn't cover it that the homeowners should. I've never looked at it. Maybe insurance works different in Australia.

Sounds like his spring went out too! Now you have me scared that it will happen to my 911 turbo. I seem to have nothing but bad luck. Had my heart attack when I was only 38, caused by my blood clot disorder we never knew was in the family.

 

[ttocs]

Garage door springs are rated for the number of uses. Some are 5,000, some are 10,000, some go higher. But it's expected that annual lubrication is performed to reach those number of operations. When you do the math, you may find that the average spring is only expected to last about 7 years.

For example, 4 open/close operations a day equates to 7,300 over 5 years. The rule of thumb garage door companies use is, after 7 years you're on borrowed time, expect a failure. They can last longer, but it's not something to be expected unless you paid for higher duty springs.

The Chinese made springs, like what would be included in discount garage door kits you can find at consumer home stores, are hit or miss. When I used to build the ridiculously large homes for a living we used custom garage door companies that use the same brand operators found in home stores which are a different spec - sold to the pro companies, but they use springs of a quality spec consumers can't easily find, and even those will fail at the expected usage estimate. I just had the springs replaced last year at a house we built in 2013, so they lasted 9 years for a door that's made of solid mahogany 3" thick and has insulated glass windows.

 

[Robert D]

Garage door springs are rated for the number of uses. Some are 5,000, some are 10,000, some go higher. But it's expected that annual lubrication is performed to reach those number of operations. When you do the math, you may find that the average spring is only expected to last about 7 years.

For example, 4 open/close operations a day equates to 7,300 over 5 years. The rule of thumb garage door companies use is, after 7 years you're on borrowed time, expect a failure. They can last longer, but it's not something to be expected unless you paid for higher duty springs.

The Chinese made springs, like what would be included in discount garage door kits you can find at consumer home stores, are hit or miss. When I used to build the ridiculously large homes for a living we used custom garage door companies that use the same brand operators found in home stores which are a different spec - sold to the pro companies, but they use springs of a quality spec consumers can't easily find, and even those will fail at the expected usage estimate. I just had the springs replaced last year at a house we built in 2013, so they lasted 9 years for a door that's made of solid mahogany 3" thick and has insulated glass windows.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we had both springs replaced when they went out. The bigger double door went out first and then the smaller one car door later. I think ours lasted about 9 years. We don't use our doors a lot now, especially since covid now has my wife only going to work once a week. Some days they don't get used at all.
Our next house we build I want to be sure to have a regular door in the garage to use in addition to the front door. That'll save some on wear and tear of the garage door. We use the front door a lot now. The garage door installer said that he has many customers that never use their front door. One lady had her garage door opener break down and couldn't get into her home because she doesn't carry a key to the house! She said she couldn't even find it later when looking for it.

 

[Robert D]

The new replacement Balanced Force 210 sounds great and has had zero problems. I get my 2nd sub, a Power Sound Audio, in tomorrow and hope to have everything hooked up and in running order by tomorrow night. This will be the first time ive ever had more than one sub. I plan on doing a review on the new sub in a different thread. I will have that in the audio section thats not for Martin Logan. It wont be a highly technical review because my knowledge doesnt go really deep, but it will be what my impression is of the performance and overall sound quality. There seems to be some interest in that based on some responses in this thread.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one RobD, glad to hear the BF sub is behaving... compared to the other one. Speaking of which, any idea what was wrong with it in the first place? Would be good to know since these things are always a learning curve.

Have fun with the subs, you're going to be delighted!
Cheers mate, RJ

 

[Robert D]

Nice one RobD, glad to hear the BF sub is behaving... compared to the other one. Speaking of which, any idea what was wrong with it in the first place? Would be good to know since these things are always a learning curve.

Have fun with the subs, you're going to be delighted!
Cheers mate, RJ

From what I gathered, it was a problem somewhere in the top control panel. I sent the whole thing back to Martin Logan and they diagnosed it there. Ron said its rare for the control panel to go bad. It's usually the amp board. He sent me a new amp board and I installed it. The new board didn't fix the problem. There's really only 4 parts in the speaker I think: control panel, amp board, and then 2 woofers. I tried to get the control board out but couldn't.

 

[Robert D]

One question for those that know more than me. Now that the BF 210 is running through the ML wireless transmitter, it turns the power on but it never goes off. It's set to auto. Prior to this I was using the 12v input to turn it off and on but can't now since it's behind the sofa. My Depth i used to not turn off too and my last BF 210 that went bad was doing this too. I'm not sure if this new BF 210 has a malfunction or if its due to it running on wireless.
Anyone else here have a sub running on the ML wireless? Does yours turn off? Mine turns on fine but never goes off.
I think it's not a problem to have in on 24/7? It's not hard on it is it? It just consumes more energy? I really don't want to mess with turning it on and off. The wireless boxes will be on all of the time too.
Does the amp go into some sort of standby mode even though it's still turned on? I wish it would turn off, but if it's not harmful then I'll just live with it.

 

[Robert D]

Well, I unplugged the RCA plug from the BF 210 overnight, and it correctly went into standby mode. I just plugged it back in and the sub did not turn back on when I did so. So that's a good sign. It only came on after it got a signal when I turned on the TV.
I turned it off and will check it again in a little over 1 hour. The last couple of days the sub has stayed on all night when the wireless receiver is plugged in with the RCA. Its almost as if the speaker is receiving some kind of weak signal from the wireless receiver box even when the AVR is turned off. The weird thing is that when I plugged the RCA cable back in this morning, it didn't trigger the subwoofer back on again. If the wirekess receiver is putting out a weak signal constantly then I expected plugging in that RCA to the sub would immediately trigger it on but that did not happen.
Maybe it takes a stronger signal to initially turn it on, but not so strong to stay on?Maybe a weak signal is enough to keep it turned on but not strong enough to initially trigger it on?

 

[ttocs]

Maybe it takes a stronger signal to initially turn it on, but not so strong to stay on?Maybe a weak signal is enough to keep it turned on but not strong enough to initially trigger it on?

This is what I think is the case with auto-on features.

It takes a substantial amount of level for my ML subs and 13A speakers to turn on, but not as much to keep them in an ON state. With subs, the signal has to have low enough frequencies at the threshold level to get them to turn on.

 

[Robert D]

This is what I think is the case with auto-on features.

It takes a substantial amount of level for my ML subs and 13A speakers to turn on, but not as much to keep them in an ON state. With subs, the signal has to have low enough frequencies at the threshold level to get them to turn on.

Well, after 1 hour the sub is still on. So somehow having the wireless receiver plugged in with the RCA keeps the subwoofer turned on.
My big question now, is this just an unfortunate side effect of using the wireless device or is my unit defective? I'm communicating now with Ron at ML. I will see what he says. I wish I could use the 12 volt trigger but the sub is behind my couch now and there's no easy way to run a line.

 

[ttocs]

Well, after 1 hour the sub is still on. So somehow having the wireless receiver plugged in with the RCA keeps the subwoofer turned on.
My big question now, is this just an unfortunate side effect of using the wireless device or is my unit defective? I'm communicating now with Ron at ML. I will see what he says. I wish I could use the 12 volt trigger but the sub is behind my couch now and there's no easy way to run a line.

I use wireless, Emotiva VSUB, and the ML subs turn off automatically.

Later today I'll measure the output of the Receiver when the processor is in Standby and On.