In the last few years I have heard many different variations, styles and Brands of PC, IC and Speaker cables. Some made a notable difference, some did not and some really stood out and made a very nice difference in my system to my ears. But all of them did change the sound or synergy in the room, Doesn’t mean it will for you. But to state that it doesnt make any difference at all is just ignorant. It’s like saying changing a drum head to a different coating or tension doesn’t make a difference to drum sound or changing drum stick sizes doesn’t affect the bounce and feel of drumming etc. Every little thing I change always makes some kind of difference, audio or drum gear. (yes I’m a drummer). Everyone on this site knows my room is way too small for my CLX, so what? I still swap gear and cables all the time and enjoy it. I say you experiment and have fun with the hobby, ask questions, read reply's, buy some cables and have fun. I really enjoy this hobby and listening to music and am willing to spend “stupid” money on all kinds of gear and cables with full knowing that some of these choices might not work all that great in my particular system and setup and I will lose money sometimes, Part of the ride IMO. It Boggles my mind that people are so absolute with " the way things are" attitude. -----Stupid Listening!
Upgraded Power Cables
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beek
Well-known member
Thanx Necro completely Agree ( O I am a drummer too ) 1920 Ludwig Reliance is one. Espicially cables that have r/c networks tied to them, I wont mention the brand, if you cant hear a change with an elbow thrown into the upper response thats a problem a doctor should look at.
beek
Well-known member
No your walls are wired with 14G wire.. good for 15A branch circuits. 12G wire is good for 20A. As someone said - if you expect to hear it, you will.
............... this is age of house & city/state dependant..............Gee deilenberger do you know Rikk here???
beek
Well-known member
sweeeeeeeete......................................................
deilenberger
Active member
Yes - but those are the minimum sizes laid out by the federal construction standards. States/cities can choose to make them thicker, but not any thinner. Chicago doesn't use plastic covered cable - they use Romex (metallic armored cable).. but the conductor size remains the same.
Hey - have fun with your magic wires.. If they make you happy, good on'ya.. just expect some comeback when magic is stated as factual data.
beek
Well-known member
Yes - but those are the minimum sizes laid out by the federal construction standards. States/cities can choose to make them thicker, but not any thinner. Chicago doesn't use plastic covered cable - they use Romex (metallic armored cable).. but the conductor size remains the same.
Hey - have fun with your magic wires.. If they make you happy, good on'ya.. just expect some comeback when magic is stated as factual data.
Come One Come All,
Here's another case of barking up the wrong tree in the wrong neighborhood.....
Maybe its catching?
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
I will dip my toe into this one time since I've posted about this many times in the past.
If you think you will hear a difference, then you will position is just silly and discredits those who believe in their ears and not dry science and specifications to make their decision for them.
It also have to do with the transparency, or lack thereof, of an individuals system and one's hearing acuity.
GG
If you think you will hear a difference, then you will position is just silly and discredits those who believe in their ears and not dry science and specifications to make their decision for them.
It also have to do with the transparency, or lack thereof, of an individuals system and one's hearing acuity.
GG
beek
Well-known member
Completely Agree Gordon,
Its the people that just Read & have no experience that are shooting down those that have tried & experienced the changes.
As ?? has stated here - But to state that it doesnt make any difference at all is just ignorant.
It Boggles my mind that people are so absolute with " the way things are" attitude.
So does this mean the rest of Us that can hear a difference are just rich fools?
Its the people that just Read & have no experience that are shooting down those that have tried & experienced the changes.
As ?? has stated here - But to state that it doesnt make any difference at all is just ignorant.
It Boggles my mind that people are so absolute with " the way things are" attitude.
So does this mean the rest of Us that can hear a difference are just rich fools?
deilenberger
Active member
Read Roger Russell's page.. then provide any explanation for the true A-B speaker wire test listeners failing to identify the Monster cable.. It wasn't an inadequate system problem (McIntosh is generally well regarded), it wasn't that Roger just "read" and shot down the rest. They did a REAL A-B blind test, and the people who claimed they could hear a difference didn't.
But - whatever. He does provide some interesting insight into how an inferior cable (high capacitance) can cause distortion that some people may mistake for "clarity" - when in actuality it is just distortion.
Oh - no experience.. Spent my college years with a part-time job in a recording studio high-end audio shop, both designing systems, repairing systems, setting up recording and playback sessions and professional sound installation. All the proceeds from that work were dumped back into equipment (good stuff - incredibly cheap at the time, I still have one Marantz 8B that I haven't sold off..) I then spent 20 years at Bell Labs doing basic physics research for a living - and hanging out with the Bell-Labs audio club (talk about unlimited equipment.. we had access to some of the best acoustic labs in the world.)
But whatever.
Working at the studio/store was an interesting insight into marketing "hi-fi" equipment (and the scams manufacturers pulled..) I may be new to Martin-Logans (not to electrostatics - I probably had them when most members here weren't yet in diapers..)
As I said - if you enjoy them.. have at'm.. it's certainly a harmless belief, but I'll stick to my low-voltage garden wiring cables (at $0.28/foot).. and my own crimped on magic ends (spade lugs.) I'd rather spend my money on source material to listen to..
Hey - what's your take on the green magic marker on CD's?
<-- smiley.. it's a joke..
But - whatever. He does provide some interesting insight into how an inferior cable (high capacitance) can cause distortion that some people may mistake for "clarity" - when in actuality it is just distortion.
Oh - no experience.. Spent my college years with a part-time job in a recording studio high-end audio shop, both designing systems, repairing systems, setting up recording and playback sessions and professional sound installation. All the proceeds from that work were dumped back into equipment (good stuff - incredibly cheap at the time, I still have one Marantz 8B that I haven't sold off..) I then spent 20 years at Bell Labs doing basic physics research for a living - and hanging out with the Bell-Labs audio club (talk about unlimited equipment.. we had access to some of the best acoustic labs in the world.)
But whatever.
Working at the studio/store was an interesting insight into marketing "hi-fi" equipment (and the scams manufacturers pulled..) I may be new to Martin-Logans (not to electrostatics - I probably had them when most members here weren't yet in diapers..)
As I said - if you enjoy them.. have at'm.. it's certainly a harmless belief, but I'll stick to my low-voltage garden wiring cables (at $0.28/foot).. and my own crimped on magic ends (spade lugs.) I'd rather spend my money on source material to listen to..
Hey - what's your take on the green magic marker on CD's?
<-- smiley.. it's a joke..
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shakham
Well-known member
I have a story to tell...
I have been playing with photoshop recently. Just basic editing, and adjusting pictures to look better.
There are multiple adjustments you can do. A basic one is Contrast where you click and hold a dial with your mouse and you move it left and right to adjust. The number starts at 0, and you can adjust to a range of -100 to +100. If you move your mouse quickly, the number moves quickly, and if you move slowly, well..you get the idea.
(wait..I have a point to all of this)
Usually you click the button, then look over at the image, and move the mouse left and right to see the affect...many times the affects are very subtle. Often trying to make the picture look better is really subjective and you go back and forth on the adjustments.
To add, I have a dual-monitor setup so the adjustment dial ends up on the left screen, and the image is on the right screen.
Now the point....
Many times I have adjusted the contrast, and noticed it changing as I move my mouse right and left. Subtly increasing and decreasing contrast, only to realize, that I never had actually grabbed the dial at all.
Now, some folks would think I never changed the contrast as the number hadn't changed....quantitatively it was the same...but qualitatively it looked better.
Or did it?
PS: I'm not trying to make fun of anybody, but this is an honest to God true event that still happens to me to this day.
I have been playing with photoshop recently. Just basic editing, and adjusting pictures to look better.
There are multiple adjustments you can do. A basic one is Contrast where you click and hold a dial with your mouse and you move it left and right to adjust. The number starts at 0, and you can adjust to a range of -100 to +100. If you move your mouse quickly, the number moves quickly, and if you move slowly, well..you get the idea.
(wait..I have a point to all of this)
Usually you click the button, then look over at the image, and move the mouse left and right to see the affect...many times the affects are very subtle. Often trying to make the picture look better is really subjective and you go back and forth on the adjustments.
To add, I have a dual-monitor setup so the adjustment dial ends up on the left screen, and the image is on the right screen.
Now the point....
Many times I have adjusted the contrast, and noticed it changing as I move my mouse right and left. Subtly increasing and decreasing contrast, only to realize, that I never had actually grabbed the dial at all.
Now, some folks would think I never changed the contrast as the number hadn't changed....quantitatively it was the same...but qualitatively it looked better.
Or did it?
PS: I'm not trying to make fun of anybody, but this is an honest to God true event that still happens to me to this day.
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beek
Well-known member
Quote: He does provide some interesting insight into how an inferior cable (high capacitance) can cause distortion that some people may mistake for "clarity" - when in actuality it is just distortion.
What about inductance & resistance??
This is exactly what I am talking about, if you rip open an MIT cable box on some of the units there is an inductor tied in series with the hot lead, this will cause an elbo somewhere in the hi frequencies depending on the value & this can be Heard. The same holds true for cables with different size legs for each polarity, something Will change regardless of what the nay sayers admit...........Some cables are purposed flavored to present some freq changes.
What about inductance & resistance??
This is exactly what I am talking about, if you rip open an MIT cable box on some of the units there is an inductor tied in series with the hot lead, this will cause an elbo somewhere in the hi frequencies depending on the value & this can be Heard. The same holds true for cables with different size legs for each polarity, something Will change regardless of what the nay sayers admit...........Some cables are purposed flavored to present some freq changes.
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deilenberger
Active member
Have you READ Roger Russell's page? He does cover inductance and resistance..
What is an "elbo"? It's not a term I'm familiar with..
Meanwhile.. http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/B000I1X6PM - but I don't think it will work with my RANE: http://www.rane.com/pi14.html
<-- another smiley.
MickeyVee
Well-known member
Given the price performance of Signal Cable.. it's pretty much a no brainer. I have the Signal Cable power cord on my Grotto i (and most of my electronics) and plan on a pair for the Vista's.. too many toys.. too little money..
Anyway.. I did notice a tightening up on the bass with the Signal on the Grotto i. For me, it's probably a last tweak once I've covered the major bases. YMMV
Anyway.. I did notice a tightening up on the bass with the Signal on the Grotto i. For me, it's probably a last tweak once I've covered the major bases. YMMV
beek
Well-known member
deilenberger
Active member
Actually it is pretty interesting if you read it and understand his conclusions.
A few things in it you may have mistaken for useable data:
1. The bad cables were small conductor size, 18G and 24G vs 12G for the better cables. Given enough length, there is measureable resistance in a small conductor cable. Higher resistance in a feed wire (if the wire is long enough) causes cable heating which means power is wasted getting to and coming back from the speaker, and the high resistance (relatively high - probably in the order of 1-2 Ohms in 25 feet of 24G wire) can cause loss of damping (not a lot - but some) - leading to "loose" sounding bass (less critical in heavily overdamped speaker designs such as ones with huge magnets like McIntosh used, or in sealed enclosures - which McIntosh also used.)
2. His initial test setup - of a high-impedence source, meaning - not an amplifier, probably a signal generator he noted has a 50 Ohm output (a common value), feeding a purely resistive load of 0.1 (1/10th) Ohm. If you are looking for high frequency rolloff - this is about as bad as you could make it. I once made the mistake of doing a frequency response test with a General Radio Frequency Tester (combined signal generator/plotter) - where the output of the GR signal generator was 50K Ohms, and the input of the Revox recorder I was testing was a 600 Ohm balanced input. Showed horrible high-frequency rolloff - way beyond the manufacturers spec of +/- 2dB at 20KHz. Once I realized the problem - and used a stepup transformer on the output of the GR frequency tester I got exactly the results the manufacturer gave as specifications. He then notes that he has seen cases where using a real amplifier - the poorer specification cable (higher resistance) gave better results since the reactive/inductive load doesn't effect the amplifier stability.
His final conclusions are valid - once he realized the error of his earlier measurements (the only reason I can see that he included them was he must have had so many column inches to fill..) - he created a load that he felt better replicated a loudspeaker load and found the differences in cables to be insignificant IF the cables are the same gauge. He finally stated:
from article said:
What he said (and I completely agree) was:
- Given cables of the same gauge - it's not possible to discern a real difference.
- Poor or dirty connectors can have a noticeable effect
It doesn't say that any of the cables tested had any magic in them..
His scope photos are interesting if you discount the ones with no termination (which are really useless) and you analyze the one with a capacitive termination (which is not a loudspeaker type load).. You'd have a hard time discerning from the remaining photos if the Polk cable or the 18G zip-cord was better - and in the square wave trace - the zip cord IS clearly better (the 5uS pulse into 8 Ohms.) I suppose the traces into a capacitive load are supposed to represent a theoretical electrostatic speaker (but if your electrostatic speaker has a crossover or step-up transformer, which Martin Logans DO have) - it's no longer a capacitive load, it's an inductive load at that point, and the resistive measurements apply.
His conclusion on wire size agrees entirely with mine:
Polk said:
And he's absolutely correct - the bigger conductors (over a long enough length) will work better then smaller conductors... The cables Roger Russell suggests are the ones I'm using (in 5' lengths, where i could probably get away with 24G Radio-Shack "Speaker Wire") are 12G - large insulators, meant for underground use (outdoor low voltage wiring).. with ample sized terminations swaged onto them by me (I have professional crimp tools - just for stuff like this. And if I was in doubt of my crimping skills, I have been soldering things for over 55 years now, and think I've gotten reasonably proficient at it..) This cable cost me $0.28/foot.. available at most home centers.
As I said before - good'on'ya if you want to spend your money that way, I have no problem with it, but I'm spending mine on new music to listen to... for me - that's better bang for my buck. :rocker:
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shakham
Well-known member
Lol....what about stickers? Should make the sound go faster...might help the hi-end roll off and act as room treatments for the low end.
In all seriousness....it did drive me nuts when I did that.
beek
Well-known member
and room placement should go easier too, you could even try stacking!!
Like Colorforms.............
Like Colorforms.............
Gordon
Well-known member
I have mixed opinion on the value of power cords for the speakers. I tried some Wireworlds on them and noticed no difference from the factory piece. However when I placed them on my amps, pre and dac, there was a noticeable difference. So to me, it depends on where they are placed. Some components may or may not exhibit a change.
Gordon
Gordon
