streamers vs spinners

[RCHeliGuy]

So basically you're saying that given all things equal my $349 Sonos Connect should be identical to the $1200 Marantz? Currently I have a Peachtree DAC-IT, but maybe upgrading the DAC is the better money spent?

If you are streaming the same content for example 128kbps or 196kbps from Pandora, or HDTrack FLAC files 24bitx192kHz from a WiFi computer it doesn't matter what those bits go through as long as they deliver them to the DAC. They are basically a hose with no effect on the contents traveling through them.

However a better DAC could improve your sound quality and everything from that point on is analog signal.

 

[TDIMike]

If you are streaming the same content for example 128kbps or 196kbps from Pandora, or HDTrack FLAC files 24bitx192kHz from a WiFi computer it doesn't matter what those bits go through as long as they deliver them to the DAC. They are basically a hose with no effect on the contents traveling through them.

However a better DAC could improve your sound quality and everything from that point on is analog signal.

I'm about to start auditioning a few different DAC's. Should be interesting.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I'm about to start auditioning a few different DAC's. Should be interesting.

What version of the ESS Sabre DAC does the Peachtree use?

The OPPO 105 has two ESS SABRE 32 Reference ES9018 DAC's and I believe they are considered state of the art at the moment.

Of course there is also analog circuitry on the analog side of the DAC and I don't know how they compare at that point.

 

[TDIMike]

What version of the ESS Sabre DAC does the Peachtree use?

The OPPO 105 has two ESS SABRE 32 Reference ES9018 DAC's and I believe they are considered state of the art at the moment.

Of course there is also analog circuitry on the analog side of the DAC and I don't know how they compare at that point.

According to Peachtrees site it uses the 9023.

 

[sleepysurf]

The Sonos streamers only support 16/44 tracks. They can't handle high-res. So, NO, the Sonos is NOT as capable as other streamers. Other differences among streamers might also include how large a memory cache they have, how much "jitter" they introduce (or reject), how noisy their power supplies are, and the quality of their internal DAC, if you are taking the analog out. Lots of potential differences, not to mention differences in their user interface.

 

[TDIMike]

The Sonos streamers only support 16/44 tracks. They can't handle high-res. So, NO, the Sonos is NOT as capable as other streamers. Other differences among streamers might also include how large a memory cache they have, how much "jitter" they introduce (or reject), how noisy their power supplies are, and the quality of their internal DAC, if you are taking the analog out. Lots of potential differences, not to mention differences in their user interface.

The user interface is epic, and there is debate as to weather or not high res is actually better.

The other things you mentioned though are interesting, and I've definitely wondered about them. W4S makes an upgrade kit to resolve high jitter and things of that nature. I've wanted to consider it but the only review of it I can find is littered with Snake Oil.

 

[Bernard]

If you are streaming the same content for example 128kbps or 196kbps from Pandora, or HDTrack FLAC files 24bitx192kHz from a WiFi computer it doesn't matter what those bits go through as long as they deliver them to the DAC. They are basically a hose with no effect on the contents traveling through them.

However a better DAC could improve your sound quality and everything from that point on is analog signal.

So what you're saying is that the cable you use between the computer and the DAC has no impact on the sound? When I bought my used DAC, the guy from whom I bought it told me to ensure that I get a good USB cable as it has a big impact on the sound, from his experience. He also told me to get a good power cable for the Mac Mini.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

So what you're saying is that the cable you use between the computer and the DAC has no impact on the sound? When I bought my used DAC, the guy from whom I bought it told me to ensure that I get a good USB cable as it has a big impact on the sound, from his experience. He also told me to get a good power cable for the Mac Mini.

Audio has a lot of misinformation and placebo effect. The issue is that there is no such thing as a good quality or bad quality bit. It is simply in spec or out of spec. The bit stream doesn't need to look like square waves to be in spec. It simply needs to be high enough or low enough to latch as a 1 or 0. That's all. I can tell you that an electrical engineer who worked on a digital mastering console.

If you are getting enough interference to corrupt the bit stream the results would not be subtle. We blew a set of Magniplaners because of a math error.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

The user interface is epic, and there is debate as to weather or not high res is actually better.

The other things you mentioned though are interesting, and I've definitely wondered about them. W4S makes an upgrade kit to resolve high jitter and things of that nature. I've wanted to consider it but the only review of it I can find is littered with Snake Oil.

If the DAC or software leading to it doesn't support higher bit rates that could have an impact.

If the Sonos is sending bits to your DAC than you don't need to care about it's power supply. Any noise in the power supply will be well below the bitstream latching thresholds.

However from the DAC on down the chain proper shielding from noise is important.

The analysis I've read on the 24bit x 192kHz music indicates the biggest difference is that they "tend" to have less compression on them. An identically mastered 16bit CD would be very hard to tell apart from the 24x192kHz master. The bigger issue is that there is frequently a lot of compression introduced before a CD is cut.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Let me explain a bit about in spec vs. out of spec.

In chip design with high speed CPU's the 1's and 0's are moving around in the GHz range. At this point electromagnetics empirically play an important role unlike at audio frequencies which are DC for practical purposes. The simulations a chip goes through before it goes to production involve seeing how fast the bits can move before errors are introduced. In production there is some standard deviation so the chips are tested and binned. The top speed CPU is more expensive than the lessor speed CPU's because there is a lower yield that spec out properly at that speed and the chips that work well at lower speeds are produced in higher numbers.

What I'm saying here is digital circuitry never has perfect square waves or close to it no matter who designs and builds it.

The digital stream doesn't care about background noise because the wave forms are significantly above the noise floor. For example a digital signal with 10% noise in the signal path has no impact because it isn't remotely enough to affect whether a bit latches as a 0 or a 1 at its destination.

 

[TDIMike]

If the DAC or software leading to it doesn't support higher bit rates that could have an impact.

If the Sonos is sending bits to your DAC than you don't need to care about it's power supply. Any noise in the power supply will be well below the bitstream latching thresholds.

However from the DAC on down the chain proper shielding from noise is important.

The analysis I've read on the 24bit x 192kHz music indicates the biggest difference is that they "tend" to have less compression on them. An identically mastered 16bit CD would be very hard to tell apart from the 24x192kHz master. The bigger issue is that there is frequently a lot of compression introduced before a CD is cut.

That's what I'd heard. So what separates the Sonos from a Marantz network streamer is the quality of the DAC, support for higher resolution files (the Sonos stops at CD quality, while the Marantz can handle DSD). That's essentially the meat and potatoes of it then. In theory a high quality DAC + Sonos should sound the same as a Marantz streamer given CD quality data.

My interest in the Marantz (the NA-6005 specifically) deals with the support for newer file formats. I've read a lot of articles about high res files being useless, but since most of what I purchase from HDTracks is 24 bit, I currently have to archive that away and convert the "working" copy down to CD quality, which is a pain.

Also...one of the things I read a lot with these is "jitter reduction". I'm assuming jitter in the output stage which could effect the datas ability to latch as a 1?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Also...one of the things I read a lot with these is "jitter reduction". I'm assuming jitter in the output stage which could effect the datas ability to latch as a 1?

Jitter is real, but there are some important things to understand about it.

Let's say that you have a 44.1kHz data file, a 96kHz data file and 192kHz data file.

If this data is asynchronously buffered, you have no issue. The bits are just stored and have no clock rate of their own.
When I play music files from my USB thumb drive or my WiFi through my OPPO, it pulls a pile of data over which is buffered by the OPPO and then the DAC reads that data based on its local clock speed.
In this case there is only one clock rate and nothing that need to be synchronized. The data is buffered and waiting patiently for the DAC to get to it.
If the DAC's internal time clock is off by a few picoseconds, who cares! The DAC is the clock of record for your listening experience.
The output of the DAC is now an analog pre-amp out signal feeding my amplifier.

The same is true of Pandora and streaming services. The data is buffered asynchronously and turned from digital to analog at only one internal clock rate.

Jitter is more of an issue if you have synchronous communication between two devices. For example if you are using HDMI or S/PDIF.

HOWEVER even though jitter is actually a real thing, being able to actually hear would seem extraordinarily unlikely.

But yes if you have a separate box doing digital acquisition and a digital cable connecting it to a separate DAC there is jitter.

There is a lot of FUD spread about digital and a lot of things that are theoretically present, but that in the real world are so far down on the change of things that really do have an impact on your sound quality that they are buried.

However part me still loves the fact that the Oppo signal path is so free of anything that could corrupt the data for almost every music signal source that I have. My only synchronized digital signal is the HDMI from my DVR. Otherwise every other audio signal comes in asynchronously You could speculate about the standard deviation of the pits on the CD's and BD's, but that is really stretching things.

 

[twich54]

Holly Molly 'RC' as an analog guy I thought getting and understanding VTA and azimuth correctly was a challenge, all this jitter, FUD, asynchronously and such makes my little mind go haywire !

I'm trying grasp all of it though, thanks for sharing your knowledge !

 

[TDIMike]

Jitter is real, but there are some important things to understand about it.

Let's say that you have a 44.1kHz data file, a 96kHz data file and 192kHz data file.

If this data is asynchronously buffered, you have no issue. The bits are just stored and have no clock rate of their own.
When I play music files from my USB thumb drive or my WiFi through my OPPO, it pulls a pile of data over which is buffered by the OPPO and then the DAC reads that data based on its local clock speed.
In this case there is only one clock rate and nothing that need to be synchronized. The data is buffered and waiting patiently for the DAC to get to it.
If the DAC's internal time clock is off by a few picoseconds, who cares! The DAC is the clock of record for your listening experience.
The output of the DAC is now an analog pre-amp out signal feeding my amplifier.

The same is true of Pandora and streaming services. The data is buffered asynchronously and turned from digital to analog at only one internal clock rate.

Jitter is more of an issue if you have synchronous communication between two devices. For example if you are using HDMI or S/PDIF.

HOWEVER even though jitter is actually a real thing, being able to actually hear would seem extraordinarily unlikely.

But yes if you have a separate box doing digital acquisition and a digital cable connecting it to a separate DAC there is jitter.

There is a lot of FUD spread about digital and a lot of things that are theoretically present, but that in the real world are so far down on the change of things that really do have an impact on your sound quality that they are buried.

However part me still loves the fact that the Oppo signal path is so free of anything that could corrupt the data for almost every music signal source that I have. My only synchronized digital signal is the HDMI from my DVR. Otherwise every other audio signal comes in asynchronously You could speculate about the standard deviation of the pits on the CD's and BD's, but that is really stretching things.

Ahhh excellent. So my signal path currently Linux NAS ---> Wifi ----> Sonos Connect ---(digital RCA out) ---> Peachtree DAC-It ----> Marantz NR1603 analog input.

Which means I'm synchronized and therefore somewhat free of jitter issues, and as mentioned power supply noise isn't a factor either. So my only "real" issue is lack of 24 bit / DSD support. So it isn't exactly future proof.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Ahhh excellent. So my signal path currently Linux NAS ---> Wifi ----> Sonos Connect ---(digital RCA out) ---> Peachtree DAC-It ----> Marantz NR1603 analog input.

Which means I'm synchronized and therefore somewhat free of jitter issues, and as mentioned power supply noise isn't a factor either. So my only "real" issue is lack of 24 bit / DSD support. So it isn't exactly future proof.

You have some jitter on your synchronous digital RCA out, but if it is a decent clean signal it is probably less than -75 dB. Asynchronous is where it buffers the bits and clock rates don't have an impact. That is just a swag on the jitter noise. It could be much better than that.

 

[amey01]

So what you're saying is that the cable you use between the computer and the DAC has no impact on the sound? When I bought my used DAC, the guy from whom I bought it told me to ensure that I get a good USB cable as it has a big impact on the sound, from his experience. He also told me to get a good power cable for the Mac Mini.

Pretty much Bernard - yes.

We've discussed this in other threads too - Data is data - just like your Mac Mini doesn't need a good USB or power cable to calculate Pi correctly, nor does it need that to calculate audio correctly. The computer doesn't distinguish between data that represents your bank account balance; and other data that just happens to represent a musical waveform.

Computers can not be made to be "more accurate" - if that was the case we'd have some pretty big problems with the world's financial records and everything else in daily life.

If you want proof, copy a music file over a regular $2 USB cable, then copy the same file over a $multi-thousand audiophile cable. You can add the expensive power cord to the Mac Mini too, just to cover everything off. Now checksum both files and you'll find they are identical.

Jitter and noise are two areas that can matter though.

Jitter used to matter a lot in the old world when a DAC used to lock onto the clock signal from the source. But with buffering and reclocking DACs (ie - virtually any modern DAC) that is completely irrelevant.

USB asynchronous connections are jitter free by definition. IE - asynchronous means untimed.

Any modern DAC (eg. your MDAC) will be shielded from noise, and buffered/reclocked against jitter, so it just can not have an impact on the sound.

See discussion here in this thread http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...ated-CD-Player&p=166544&viewfull=1#post166544

 

[Bernard]

Adam, I understand the theory, but am looking forward to trying it all out using my ears as the final judge. As Roberto (an electrical engineer, BTW) says, "Trust your ears". If my ears tell me there's a difference, the theory goes out the door, my years of electrical engineering not withstanding.

If I hear no difference I'll be delighted. I'm prepared to set aside the fact that the theory says that there is no difference and listen for myself. After all, I listen with my ears, not with an oscilloscope.

 

[roberto]

Hola chicos. I was skeptical with data info through cables, until I had one. I did listen to it, and definitively, it was easy to listen the difference. Here a conclusion of a review: "...Conclusion

The DH Labs Mirage is the best USB cable I have used in my system. Period. While I have not had hundreds in my system, I have had enough of a sampling to make this determination, with various cables from a host of manufacturers. The Mirage offered stellar sonics with three different DACs, all completely different in design, and with digital music files in all resolutions from Redbook CD to Double DSD.

The DH Labs Mirage is not the most expensive “audiophile” USB cable on the market, not even close, but it clearly engineered to the highest standard, from the ground up. Computer audio enthusiasts looking for a state of the art USB interface should check out the DH Mirage. It is a game changer..."

Here is a DH Labs explanation of the Mirage model construction: "...According to DH Labs, “the standard USB interface contains both data and power conductors. In the Mirage USB, the data conductors (carrying digital audio signals) and the power conductors have been physically separated using proprietary Signal Isolation Technology. This isolates the digital data stream from noise emanating on the host computer’s USB Power Bus.

The data and power conductors are each separately shielded, creating a double barrier, which eliminates noise from the music signal. It also results in cleaner power for any digital to analog converter (DAC) whose power is supplied via the USB interface.

An unprecedented FOUR SHIELDS have been engineered into this design. In addition, larger power conductors are also incorporated which other cables cannot offer. These conductors allow for the lowest impedance in the industry. Magnetic fields (which are not blocked by conventional shields) are also tightly controlled within the cable, minimizing noise and interference to previously unseen levels.


The silver-coated Continuous CrystalTM conductors in the Mirage USB are encased in a ultra-low density dielectric. Superior dimensional tolerances are maintained to the tightest tolerance possible. The resulting uniform impedance minimizes signal reflections and is critical for the elevated sampling rates used in high-resolution audio. Finally, the cable is custom terminated with superior gold plated connectors.”


Happy listening!

 

[twich54]

Adam, I understand the theory, but am looking forward to trying it all out using my ears as the final judge. As Roberto (an electrical engineer, BTW) says, "Trust your ears". If my ears tell me there's a difference, the theory goes out the door, my years of electrical engineering not withstanding.

If I hear no difference I'll be delighted. I'm prepared to set aside the fact that the theory says that there is no difference and listen for myself. After all, I listen with my ears, not with an oscilloscope.

Bernard, while I agree (listening with our ears that is), it is the brain that does the final analysis (interpretation, call it what you want). I know, I've preached this often but psychoacoustics is very much a part of the equation.

 

[Bernard]

Bernard, while I agree (listening with our ears that is), it is the brain that does the final analysis (interpretation, call it what you want). I know, I've preached this often but psychoacoustics is very much a part of the equation.

Dave, that is implicit.