Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

[jmschnur]

10 gauge is a good first set. Nothing more fancy than Blue Jeans might make a difference. A good amp that can handle the wide variation of impedence is essential.


J

 

[InterMechanico]

I have been experimenting with some different bulk cable in the last few months, and i have heard a difference in a few; mainly in the higher frequencies. One thing that did make a noticeable difference was twisting the conductors together.

I got the idea from the wiring of the electronic control systems on the heavy equipment i work on. Any circuit carrying a low voltage signal to/from an Electronic Control Module uses the twists to prevent something called "Crosstalk" with other conductors. The way i understand it as an example given, the interference could occur in the circuit as follows:

In a given harness, there may be circuits carrying signals of varying voltage and current. If you have a computer using a reference voltage (for sensory data) of 5 volts, say for a Pressure Sensor (transducer), and right next to it in the harness lies the two conctors for a 75 volt dc fuel injector (wires twisted), the potential for the low 5 v/ref signal to be corrupted by induced current from the injector circuit is likely. Since the pressure sensor using a v/ref of 5 volts may monitor a range from 30 in/hg (vacuum) to 100 psi, a small induced current from another conductor could really corrupt the pressure signal to the ecm. You get the point though, I'm sure.


The conductors are twisted together at a rate of 2 or 3 twists per inch. The result is that (using the "Right Hand Rule") magnetic fields created by one of the conductors is cancelled by the opposing field in the other conductor. Also, I think this configuration helps to resist stray mag fields from other sets of conductors from being induced into the speakercable, which is probably the more valuable property of this configuration.

I kind of wonder whether the big difference in the sound quality of the branded cables is not as much the quality on the base components, although I'm sure that has something to do with it, but more because they are employing these standard techniques to the cable assemblies. This stuff is Old News. Twisting cables started with the advent of the multi phone switchboard I think.

IMO, the best thing you could do for cable performance would be to measure the voltage and current in a given cable at high load, mathmatically determine the size of the magnetic field generated by the cable, and then maintain (at least) that distance between all the seperate conductors.

Just the thoughts of a lowly mechanic on an ancient thread.

 

[Speedskater]

On Twisted Cables

Some of the virtues are:

a] Reduced crosstalk. (on multi-pair cables) The crosstalk on CAT5 cables is very small.

b] Reduced interference reception (and transmission).

c] If a speaker cable is made of several individual wires (cores) then twisting will force all the wires closer together which will reduce the cable's self inductance.
For speakers like ML's with very low tweeter impedance, low self inductance is important.

 

[InterMechanico]

Indeed. I was a speed skater once...
I also read that small guage multi-wire cabling would have each pair of conductors twisted at slightly different rates so as to avoid having any two sets of conductors running together for any distance.

 

[Speedskater]

That's what Cat5 & Cat6 cables do. They can carry four different audio signals about 100 meters with almost zero cross-talk.

 

[Rich]

I just love how a thread that started as a troll comment on the lack of differences between speaker cables has been transformed into a discussion of the scientific and technical differences between cables that actually do affect the sound. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

 

[retiredelectrician]

SPRITE MAKES LEMON-LIME SYMBOL ON CAN BIGGER, 1000s taste a difference.

Thanks RICH for the perfect segue to my response.

Years back Sprite made the lemon-lime on the can bigger. NO CHANGE TO THE FORMULA. 100s wrote and called to complain. "My Sprite is too lemony", "why did you change the formula of my Sprite", I have been drinking Sprite for 20 years, How come you changed it".
Not long after Sprite shrunk the lemon-lime symbol back to as it was and all was well again in the kingdom of Sprite drinkers.



Note: - I am in no way saying that there are, or there are not differences between cables, a/c cords, etc.

Craig Street (record producer, Norah Jones, Gypsy Kings, et al) once spoke about how we can hear (for example) from 20 to 20K and then spoke about how we also take in vibrations through our skin, chest cavity etc. Possibly as high as 40K I think he said. If this is true then I feel it adds a new dimension to the discussion of what and what does not actually make an audible difference and or a difference to our listening experience.

Having said that, I feel we must also realize that very few of us really understand how our brains work, especially when we are totally unaware that our brain is ever constantly processing information, like the processing that it is going on now as you read this sentence. If only the size of the lemon-lime logo on the Sprite can can influence ones taste experience (without any prompting or suggestion that maybe the Sprite is now gonna have a lemon lime bite to it) then it is clear that what we see and hear about a given product can (I did not say does I said can) indeed have an effect on what we actually hear.

I suppose my point is, if one is going to spend hard earned money on any "fringe" audio product be sure it really is making a difference.

Prof Stanley Lipschitz has written many articles on the correct ways to judge and compare audio devices and why doing so is necessary. It is from those articles it is clear the we can be (I am not saying we always are 100% I said we can be) influenced by things we see and read about a product to the point where our brain can influence our judgment on what we really are hearing or not hearing.

I am adding the following for the simple reason that on other audio sites where I used to add my two cents worth many would simply start making jokes about Prof Lipshitz's name or jokes about "he sound like a poindexter science teacher I had in high school", without knowing who he is, or looking him up.

Professor Lipshitz's research interests are multidisciplinary, drawing on areas of applied mathematics, physics, and electrical and mechanical engineering. They include the mathematical theory of dithered quantizers, noise shapers, and sigma-delta modulators, and the physical acoustics of nonlinear sound radiation and active noise control problems. Professor Lipshitz has consulted and collaborated extensively on dithered quantizers and noise shapers for the digital audio and music industries with companies such as Philips Classics, Decca Records, Deutsche Grammophon, CBS, Sonic Solutions, Meridian Audio, and Weiss Engineering. These techniques are now standard practice in digital audio mastering and signal processing. He is a past President of the AES.

The following is a 2 minute interview with him about co axial drivers. I always love listening to people like Stanley because he is not selling anything, and in my mind he knows exactly what he is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOxSf3mxy0

I am a new member, I am not a scientist I am an electrician and I do not claim to be the supreme being and know anymore than anyone else does. I simply seek out information when I want to learn about something and like to pass it on to see how others feel.

And what better a forum to do so than here on the site that Tom has set up for us. Where all of us have deluded ourselves into thinking that panels sound truer to the actual performance than standard tweeter midrange woofer cabinet speakers do. (I am kidding of course).

thanks for reading

 

[InterMechanico]

SPRITE MAKES LEMON-LIME SYMBOL ON CAN BIGGER, 1000s taste a difference.

Thanks RICH for the perfect segue to my response.

Years back Sprite made the lemon-lime on the can bigger. NO CHANGE TO THE FORMULA. 100s wrote and called to complain. "My Sprite is too lemony", "why did you change the formula of my Sprite", I have been drinking Sprite for 20 years, How come you changed it".
Not long after Sprite shrunk the lemon-lime symbol back to as it was and all was well again in the kingdom of Sprite drinkers.



Note: - I am in no way saying that there are, or there are not differences between cables, a/c cords, etc.

Craig Street (record producer, Norah Jones, Gypsy Kings, et al) once spoke about how we can hear (for example) from 20 to 20K and then spoke about how we also take in vibrations through our skin, chest cavity etc. Possibly as high as 40K I think he said. If this is true then I feel it adds a new dimension to the discussion of what and what does not actually make an audible difference and or a difference to our listening experience.

Having said that, I feel we must also realize that very few of us really understand how our brains work, especially when we are totally unaware that our brain is ever constantly processing information, like the processing that it is going on now as you read this sentence. If only the size of the lemon-lime logo on the Sprite can can influence ones taste experience (without any prompting or suggestion that maybe the Sprite is now gonna have a lemon lime bite to it) then it is clear that what we see and hear about a given product can (I did not say does I said can) indeed have an effect on what we actually hear.

I suppose my point is, if one is going to spend hard earned money on any "fringe" audio product be sure it really is making a difference.

Prof Stanley Lipschitz has written many articles on the correct ways to judge and compare audio devices and why doing so is necessary. It is from those articles it is clear the we can be (I am not saying we always are 100% I said we can be) influenced by things we see and read about a product to the point where our brain can influence our judgment on what we really are hearing or not hearing.

I am adding the following for the simple reason that on other audio sites where I used to add my two cents worth many would simply start making jokes about Prof Lipshitz's name or jokes about "he sound like a poindexter science teacher I had in high school", without knowing who he is, or looking him up.

Professor Lipshitz's research interests are multidisciplinary, drawing on areas of applied mathematics, physics, and electrical and mechanical engineering. They include the mathematical theory of dithered quantizers, noise shapers, and sigma-delta modulators, and the physical acoustics of nonlinear sound radiation and active noise control problems. Professor Lipshitz has consulted and collaborated extensively on dithered quantizers and noise shapers for the digital audio and music industries with companies such as Philips Classics, Decca Records, Deutsche Grammophon, CBS, Sonic Solutions, Meridian Audio, and Weiss Engineering. These techniques are now standard practice in digital audio mastering and signal processing. He is a past President of the AES.

The following is a 2 minute interview with him about co axial drivers. I always love listening to people like Stanley because he is not selling anything, and in my mind he knows exactly what he is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOxSf3mxy0

I am a new member, I am not a scientist I am an electrician and I do not claim to be the supreme being and know anymore than anyone else does. I simply seek out information when I want to learn about something and like to pass it on to see how others feel.

And what better a forum to do so than here on the site that Tom has set up for us. Where all of us have deluded ourselves into thinking that panels sound truer to the actual performance than standard tweeter midrange woofer cabinet speakers do. (I am kidding of course).

thanks for reading

Thanks for the great addition to tthe thread, retiredelec.... . I've just paused Janacek to watch the video.

 

[twich54]

. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Rich, I prefer a 'twist' in my martini !

 

[Rich]

SPRITE MAKES LEMON-LIME SYMBOL ON CAN BIGGER, 1000s taste a difference.

Years back Sprite made the lemon-lime on the can bigger. NO CHANGE TO THE FORMULA. 100s wrote and called to complain. "My Sprite is too lemony", "why did you change the formula of my Sprite", I have been drinking Sprite for 20 years, How come you changed it".
Not long after Sprite shrunk the lemon-lime symbol back to as it was and all was well again in the kingdom of Sprite drinkers.

Got a citation for this? Sounds like an urban legend to me, and I can't find anything on the web to back it up. So I'm calling BS.

 

[retiredelectrician]

Hi Rich

I first heard the reference to the situation with Sprite by a professor of psychophysics who's name I will try to remember. The second time I heard about the story was a lecture/talk by author/best seller/writer for New Yorker Magazine, Malcolm Gladwell. I will do my best to track down the actual story/report about Sprite.

I am not sure that just because something can not be found on the net the term BS is called for, a request or a question like "do you have a source for the story about Sprite" in my opinion is a little more civil but each to thier own. As a proponent of free speech (not political correctness, the two are incompatable) I of course welcome any comments you make in any manner you find appropriate to make them.

Either way, even if you ignore the Sprite reference I feel my point of view is valid and still holds water.

 

[Rich]

I am not sure that just because something can not be found on the net the term BS is called for

I am pretty sure that it is. But then I tend to call it as I see it.

Either way, even if you ignore the Sprite reference I feel my point of view is valid and still holds water.

I think your point of view is valid from your own personal perspective. Lots of other people will find it invalid for their own reasons. It is really a completely subjective subject, so not a lot of use in arguing about it as they do on so many forums. For the record, I tend to agree with you. If you can't pick out a difference with an ABX test, then the difference probably isn't worth spending a lot of money on. But then you get into all the arguments about how the switch itself causes problems with the test (I mean, if you are testing seriously high end components or cables, and throwing a twenty dollar switch into the signal path, what good is that?). And on it goes . . .

 

[retiredelectrician]

Thanks Rich

I will do my best to find out about your Sprite concern.

I of course agree with you 100% about a $20 ABX switch.

Two brief points.

1 - If you read about and or look up who Prof Lipschitz is I am sure you will know he knows full well that an ABX switch (to be useful and accurate in scientific testing) can not be some Radio Shack / Best Buy cheapy.

2 - I had the privilege of attending a few his seminars as well as a few his audio demonstrations many many years ago. I saw first hand the device he was using for ABX switching and it was far from a $20. device. If memory serves me, and it has failed me before, the one I saw him use (by comparison) made the QSC ABX Comparator look like a basic phone jack.

 

[Rich]

2 - I had the privilege of attending a few his seminars as well as a few his audio demonstrations many many years ago. I saw first hand the device he was using for ABX switching and it was far from a $20. device. If memory serves me, and it has failed me before, the one I saw him use (by comparison) made the QSC ABX Comparator look like a basic phone jack.

The problem is this: Now you are suggesting that someone spend anywhere from $600 to well over $1,000 on a glorified switch just so they can test whether they hear a difference between cables without any psychosomatic influences on their test. I am thinking the number of people willing to do that will be counted on one hand. There is probably a reason QSC stopped selling the Comparator a long, long time ago, and I would suspect it has everything to do with demand (or lack thereof).

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi guys,

AHHHH. My favorite topic. Soft drinks.

I occasionally peruse another site, that being the "What's Best Forum".

Some of you may know the name Mike Lavigne. By all accounts, he probably has one of the best systems on the planet.

He started a new thread regarding "liquid filled nano fuses", whatever the hell that is. They cost $100 a pop.

He inserted four of these into the amplifiers contained in the bass modules of his Evolution Acoustics MM7 speaker system. The MM7 is a massive four unit affair. He claims that the new fuses were quite audible and improved the overall sound.

The objective crowd claimed foul and wanted proof as to why this apparent improvement occurred. ML said forget it. He described how he came to the conclusion which somewhat mirrors my approach to "testing" gear. That being a lengthy analysis (many hours over several days) listening to various types of music.

Suffice to say I agree with ML's methodology. Or to use those overused phrases "trust your ears" and " your mileage may vary".

Seems as if the Sprite "change" could have been easily tested. Give someone a sample of the before and after and ask if they taste the same. I wish audio was that simple.

Thank you retiredelectrician for your posts. Quite interesting to say the least. I hope you continue to participate in our forum.

GG

 

[RUR]

For the record, past improvements claimed by Mike have failed to survive blind testing: http://www.avsforum.com/t/941184/observations-of-a-controlled-cable-test.

Mike's observations begin @ post #37.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Ken,

Thanks for sharing. Very interesting.

I've stated before that I don't believe a short term A / B test is valid and that long term listening is a more defensible method. Of course, to agree with this, one has to accept that auditory memory is not a myth.

I also believe, from experience, that any system can sound different on any given day depending on mood, ambient light, how tired one is, etc. and taking the "long" approach tends to level out that phenomena.

GG

 

[RUR]

Hey Gordon, I try to avoid the topic altogether, as it's just a hobby and folks are free to enjoy it in any way they like. But, since Mike has been down this road before, I couldn't help myself.:devil:

Me? I prefer Henry Weinhard's Root Beer.:cheers:

Ken

 

[Gordon Gray]

No problem Ken.

It's all good.

 

[InterMechanico]

I find the A/B outputs on my amplifier to be a fine "Comparator".