Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

[roberto]

Hola Chicos, three things you must take in mind, 1) Cable resistance, 2) Cable inductance and 3) Cable capacitance. With the aid of an oscilloscope, just apply 1KHz square wave signal and see the input signal and three feet of cable, see the signal applied to the cable. You will find a big difference. The musical signal is very complex and seen it through the oscilloscope at the same distance, you can tell a difference, thus affecing the sound quality. The left side of the square wave tells you the bass, and the right side tells you your highs... sure your ears can tell too... Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Guys,

Given the thread starter's lack of response, seems pretty obvious what this is all about.

Enjoy your bargain basement wire Nils.

GG

 

[Beachbound]

I would then highly suggest selling off one's midrange electronics and saving yourself a bundle with those equally fantastic "audiophile killing" electronics that are also available at Best Buy! I have found cables extremely frustating at times...certainly not for the reasons the original poster sited...but for the drastic changes they DO make on a system!!

 

[Peter_Klim]

Guys,

Given the thread starter's lack of response, seems pretty obvious what this is all about.

Enjoy your bargain basement wire Nils.

GG

I wouldn't quite come to that conclusion yet (in the same way one shouldn't quickly conclude there is no difference) . He only started the thread last night, less than 24 hours ago. I hardly ever visit the forum...

I would like to hear the difference. Anyone near Huntington Beach CA wan't to invite me for a demo?

 

[daniel]

I can't remember when ( it was many years ago) audio-ideas magazine conducted some tests on different cables. Resistance, inductance capacitance ( the usual suspects) were measured relative to frequencies.
Guess what? They didn't measure the same. the worst were zip cord and one expensive cable. Among the best there was Cardas.

they also did listening test. The worst was the zip cord. Can't remember which ones were the best.

I also did a test on my sister in law who had zip cord on her cheap sound system. Without telling her a substitute them with some reasonably priced
"audiophile" cable. She couldn't believe what she was hearing.
I was as surprised as she was considering her sound system.

p.s. If one can't hear something, doesn't mean that someone else won't be able to.

 

[Gordon Gray]

One's ability to hear or not hear the impact of wire on the overall system sound (assuming no hearing damage) is directly related to the overall transparency of one's system, which, of course, can be influenced by many factors.

Having expensive, high performance hardware does not necessarily imply that the overall system will be musical and transparent.

GG

 

[Rich]

Now, I _do_ want to get the most out of my stereo, but according to my findings, I don't believe in cables any more. Anyone here that can convince me otherwise? After all, better is better.

Thanks for the answers,

Nils

Given the way the O.P. set up and posed his question, along with the fact that he hasn't revisited the thread in over two days since starting such an obviously controversial thread topic, I tend to agree with Gordon. I think this guy is just trying to get a rise out of folks.

Not only must you have a system and room capable of allowing you to hear the differences cables can make in your system, you have to have some clue and understanding of what your system should be capable of . . . in other words, what exactly to listen for.

Someone that would be satisfied with best buy cables for months, only to swap them out once with whatever cable some dealer recommends, with no other considerations, then discovering they didn't hear a difference and suddenly become convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that cables make no difference to the sound . . . well, this doesn't sound like someone that has much of a clue what they are doing in hi end audio. This same person probably has no clue that the MC 275 will roll off the highs when used with electrostats. Well, maybe you didn't hear a difference because you couldn't hear the affected frequencies to begin with.

And nils, I don't think you really searched that hard, because there have been numerous discussions on cables over the years on this forum.

 

[MickeyVee]

Also, people assume that their hearing is perfect. What if you cannot hear higher frequencies, and those are the frequencies at which there are differences.

No only is our hearing imperfect, I found that my ability to discern detail, soundstage, openness, depth and even dynamics varies with mood, time of day, stress, etc. Only when I am calm, unstressed with no other ambient noise and great mood or no lighting, I can really hear the magic. I notice this even more on my Head-Fi system.

From the cables perspective, I've tried a number of them up to Norodost and finally settled on Signal Cable.. like the sound, they're relatively inexpensive and I thin they look great. (I admit that when I go behind my system, I do like the look )

When I sold my Rotel 2 channel amp, the guy was running Radio Shack type interconnects.. He was ho hum about the sound in his system until I replaced his cables with Monster THX 800 and at that point it really impressed him and made the sale. I threw in the Monsters.

In the end, isn't it really what you're happy with and what your willing to spend and how much you're willing to tweak. I don't know there is a right answer, it's what's right for you.

 

[Brian Walsh]

• PS Audio Perfectwave Power Plant

A year or more ago I visited a client who was using a PS Audio Power Plant Premier, which of course is not the same unit. In his system, which consisted of a modified Raysonic CD player, Lamm preamp and SET amps, and Avantgarde Duos, the PP Premier injected a very noticeable haze over the sound. It was promptly sold. YMMV, but I'm just sayin'.

 

[iove]

A year or more ago I visited a client who was using a PS Audio Power Plant Premier, which of course is not the same unit. In his system, which consisted of a modified Raysonic CD player, Lamm preamp and SET amps, and Avantgarde Duos, the PP Premier injected a very noticeable haze over the sound. It was promptly sold. YMMV, but I'm just sayin'.

Interesting to hear as I was seriously considering getting this as it is on closeout. Others have said the exact opposite. I guess I'll save money on other things...like more music!

@OP: I've recently did some wire swaps myself. What I've found actually shocked me. I was a wire skeptic, not anymore. I had been using 12 gauge zip cord and replaced that with 12 gauge silver plated Teflon wire. The results: slightly recessed bass and a little more sparkle north of the mids. I had to un-roll the tubes to compensate. I'd bet I could hear a difference in A/B DBT. I'm not saying it is better, just different. I'm not even sure if I like what I hear now vs. then.

 

[Gordon]

Gordon nailed it 2 weeks ago. Where is Nils? Did he just throw a grenade at the forum?

Gordon

 

[JordanD]

I just wanted to throw the opinion of a (compared to you guys haha) very novice audiophile. I have done quite a lot of cable auditioning. I have A/B tested HDMI, analog interconnects, digital interconnects, upgraded USB cables and firewire, ungraded power chords, and finally I have done more fiddling with speaker wire then with any of the other types of cables.

The verdict? Well I think cabling makes the system (among other things of course). Maybe it is worth mentioning but the demo room used when I was doing all this was a very poorly designed demo room, I mean cement slab floor with a floating ceiling a massive amount of speakers and pretty much everything was wrong with the setup, but even then I was able to hear a night and day difference, even more so when I brought the cables home and put them on the very cheap system I am using now. I even tried using the good wire on a $150 dollar boom box and it still helped greatly. So I agree with that majority of everyone here.

To me its like trying to put minivan tires and wheels on a Ferrari. Will you get to your destination? Yes, will the ride be everything is could be? Absolutely not.

 

[abruzzopat]

I remember many years ago, in an audiophile club in Portland, OR, some guys decided to do a blind listen to various cables. I don't remember the exact setup, but the equipment was high quality and the listening space was excellent.

6 or 8 sets of speaker wires were tested. A set of three music clips was played. Everyone took notes. Results:

- cable preference did not correlate with price (except in one case, see below)
- only one person noticed when the same pair were snuck in a 2nd time (but i think he cheated)
- everyone noticed a problem with the 18-gauge Radio Shack zip cord
- quite a bit of wine was consumed

 

[gander222]

zobel networks

While I'm no expert, I have read some about zobel networks. A zobel network is simply a capacitor and resistor in series across the +/- of a speaker driver, but can also be across the +/- of speakers or an amp. Higher end SS amps often have a zobel network built in, such as my Butler Audio 2250 (I called the company to ask about zobel networks, and to my surprise they told me I already had a zobel network built in to their amp).

It seems that they flatten impedance as frequency rises, instead of letting impedance going up in an exponential curve, and you will notice a difference with higher-capacitance speaker cables, but perhaps not notice a difference with other cables.

If this could be a great tweak for ML electrostatic panels (which go crazy with very low impedance as frequency goes up), does anyone have some ideas about a simple zobel network for a Sequel 2 panel - what the resistor and cap values would be? or ML panels in general? How this might effect sonics? Or why this might not be a good idea, is there is some issue with zobel networks and electrostatic panels? I wouldn't think this was the case since I used my Butler amp with my MLs with no problems.

Thanks, Gary

 

[gander222]

I talked with the Transparent Cable today and asked if the lump in the speaker cables was a zobel network, and the guy I talked to said it was not a zobel network, but a very high frequency high pass filter, so it doesn't seem like it would do any load stabilizing. But if you like the sound better, excellent!

 

[Tosh]

I talked with the Transparent Cable today and asked if the lump in the speaker cables was a zobel network, and the guy I talked to said it was not a zobel network, but a very high frequency high pass filter, so it doesn't seem like it would do any load stabilizing. But if you like the sound better, excellent!

Probably he meant it is a very LOW frequency high pass filter (let's hope not) or a very high frequency LOW pass filter...

 

[MrBT]

While I'm no expert, I have read some about zobel networks. A zobel network is simply a capacitor and resistor in series across the +/- of a speaker driver, but can also be across the +/- of speakers or an amp. Higher end SS amps often have a zobel network built in, such as my Butler Audio 2250 (I called the company to ask about zobel networks, and to my surprise they told me I already had a zobel network built in to their amp).

It seems that they flatten impedance as frequency rises, instead of letting impedance going up in an exponential curve, and you will notice a difference with higher-capacitance speaker cables, but perhaps not notice a difference with other cables.

If this could be a great tweak for ML electrostatic panels (which go crazy with very low impedance as frequency goes up), does anyone have some ideas about a simple zobel network for a Sequel 2 panel - what the resistor and cap values would be? or ML panels in general? How this might effect sonics? Or why this might not be a good idea, is there is some issue with zobel networks and electrostatic panels? I wouldn't think this was the case since I used my Butler amp with my MLs with no problems.

Thanks, Gary

ZOBEL network is to to compensate for the inductive speaker load. Output INDUCTOR is to make an amp stable with capacitive loads. Capacitive load is what you deal with hooking up your electrostatic speaker to an amp.
"Cylindrical coil of 18AWG magnet wire, about 10cm in diameter and about 16 turns, insert a 2.2 ohm 5W metal oxide resistor into the center of the coil and solder its leads to each end of the coil. Insert this coil in series with the speaker load, after the zobel network." source: my grand master AMB laboratories.

Indutors tends to limit bendwidth and it may not be pretty at the end. This is a last resort to make an amplifier stable with such a load.

 

[gander222]

Doh!

Probably he meant it is a very LOW frequency high pass filter (let's hope not) or a very high frequency LOW pass filter...

Doh! of course I meant low pass filter - my bad, sorry.

 

[gander222]

ZOBEL network is to to compensate for the inductive speaker load. Output INDUCTOR is to make an amp stable with capacitive loads. Capacitive load is what you deal with hooking up your electrostatic speaker to an amp.
"Cylindrical coil of 18AWG magnet wire, about 10cm in diameter and about 16 turns, insert a 2.2 ohm 5W metal oxide resistor into the center of the coil and solder its leads to each end of the coil. Insert this coil in series with the speaker load, after the zobel network." source: my grand master AMB laboratories.

Indutors tends to limit bendwidth and it may not be pretty at the end. This is a last resort to make an amplifier stable with such a load.

Absolutely right, and I should have done a little more research on this first. The panel impedance goes DOWN as frequency goes up, not up as with normal speakers, and so if we're talking just about the panel (like in bi-amping), using a zobel network makes no sense at all. My apologies. I'm no electronics expert and I'm learning, and relative new to ML and electrostatic panels, etc.

I'm sure that if a solution existed for this problem, that ML would probably build it in to their panels already.

Thanks, Gary

 

[gander222]

A little more on this impedance thing. As has been said, the impedance of ML panels are all over the place, and don't just rise or fall predictably in impedance. So a zobel network, or even a reverse zobel network (if such a thing existed) wouldn't necessarily make things better.

Digging more into this, a tech at ML just sent me an impedance graph of my Sequel 2 speakers. At 20Hz impedance is about 3.5 ohms. Then it rises to 10 ohms at 40 Hz. Then it falls to 3.5 ohms at 65 Hz. Then it rises to 8 ohms at 200 Hz. It then drops to 3 ohms at 500 Hz. Then it rises to about 14 ohms at 1300Hz. Then it falls to about 4 ohms at 5kHz. Then a slight rise to 4.5 ohms at 7kHz. Then plummets to below 1.8 ohms at 20kHz. Whew! What a rollercoaster.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to address this wandering impedance? Probably not, or ML would have solved that problem by now, yes?