Interesting post, all forums are the same. But posting this as this is an interesting product I will be auditioning at some point http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...c-Research-HFT&p=249466&viewfull=1#post249466
Shun Mook
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beanbag
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It's not so much that the "effects" are at inaudible levels, it's that it was a really lousy measurement where they are trying to extract significance out of the noise (wiggles) in their signals. I bet if they measured again, they would find three different lumps to claim resonance. "If you look through trash to find something stinky, you are guaranteed to succeed."
I don't really see how the discs can resonate at such low frequencies, since the wavelengths are much longer than the micro-tubes inside. The disk itself would pretty much see a uniform pressure rise. Maybe the disk can have a membrane-like structure, and the overall compression can cause something to rattle inside. Somebody else can chime in with another mechanism. Any takers?
I'm sure the discs have a measurable effect, like maybe acting as a diffraction source, or maybe bits inside can rattle after all.
If they wanted to show harmonics of resonance, they could of at least close-miked it while blasting it with a pure tone and then get a good measure of the harmonics. Sort of like what I did here:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...2-Aerius-panels-and-woofer-induced-vibrations
I only mention this as a helpful suggestion in case they want to use data to mislead people. Then at least forum members can argue about whether measurable things are audible or not. "Oh you can't hear them? Well maybe your ears AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH."
To User211:
After you get the disks, why don't you ABX test them against similar objects like hockey pucks, or a tin box of mints. Be sure the mints are the chalky kind that don't stick together. And not paper-wrapped either. Or you can fill the box with the Magic Rocks RUR suggested earlier, being sure to experiment with the packing fraction and ratio of big rocks to little rocks. Now you have a device that can be tuned to have a "loose clacky" resonance, or a more "firm, controlled buzz". I don't know if it will widen out your living room, but I can at least guarantee 4 things:
1) It would make a measurable difference
2) It would make a "resonating" difference
3) It will be tunable for your preferences
4) It will cost less than the SM disks
roberto
Well-known member
Thanks beanbag, perhaps you are right! It is only a placebo thing!. Happy listening!
InterMechanico
Well-known member
Boooooooo! Abx is for chumps! Don't be a measurebator! 
He is right. The other people who use it never thought about it. I would assume some of them with like a 100k systems would have done something smart in their life to get all that cash, should have figured this out by now, or known how to use google to get this basic info. I am feeling like a chump now thanks to the smartest guy in the room for missing out on the obvious.
That said, there are a lot of things one can DIY. I have heard 5 and 4-way DIYed horns with room correction (which sounded awful), you can get the $30 dac that beanbag recommended Bernard and change output stages and capacitors following instructions from Lampizator website, and hey, you really can feel smart about not having spent much on your system. Add Bellwire cables, egg cartons (the ones from Wholefoods measure better), DIYed shun mooks, and your system will sound as good as any other as long as you have Dirac live
That said, there are a lot of things one can DIY. I have heard 5 and 4-way DIYed horns with room correction (which sounded awful), you can get the $30 dac that beanbag recommended Bernard and change output stages and capacitors following instructions from Lampizator website, and hey, you really can feel smart about not having spent much on your system. Add Bellwire cables, egg cartons (the ones from Wholefoods measure better), DIYed shun mooks, and your system will sound as good as any other as long as you have Dirac live
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InterMechanico
Well-known member
Thank goodness for Dirac and the experts like Beanbag, who have finally made Hi-Resolution audio a reality for us all.
User211
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Beanbag - I'd just write those tests off - there's just not enough solid info there.
I'm sure a cheaper alternative can be found. Ebony is generally reserved for more expensive guitar fretboards so it obviously isn't cheap. Ebony looks nice, though, and feels it. It'll also be hard to find something with the same properties.
I was just thinking of hitting them with a slow, relatively high volume frequency sweep with my finger on the disc, to feel where it resonates. But I agree, at LF I think they'll be fairly inert unless they're being excited by what they're standing on.
Hitting them with a fundamental tone will just take too long. Too much guesswork finding where they respond.
All in all, though, they are what they are and maybe we should just accept them for that, which is where Kedar is coming from. He likes them. So does Roberto. There's no harm in it.
Where there is harm is people spending a lot of money on them for no audible improvement (or change). That's just a rip off. Suckered by foo, so to speak.
I'm sure a cheaper alternative can be found. Ebony is generally reserved for more expensive guitar fretboards so it obviously isn't cheap. Ebony looks nice, though, and feels it. It'll also be hard to find something with the same properties.
I was just thinking of hitting them with a slow, relatively high volume frequency sweep with my finger on the disc, to feel where it resonates. But I agree, at LF I think they'll be fairly inert unless they're being excited by what they're standing on.
Hitting them with a fundamental tone will just take too long. Too much guesswork finding where they respond.
All in all, though, they are what they are and maybe we should just accept them for that, which is where Kedar is coming from. He likes them. So does Roberto. There's no harm in it.
Where there is harm is people spending a lot of money on them for no audible improvement (or change). That's just a rip off. Suckered by foo, so to speak.
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Bernard
Well-known member
Agree completely. The reason I bought them was that Roberto had said he would buy them off me if I didn't like them. I will be buying more.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't recall anyone on this forum saying that to you.
Can you please cite an example?
PS: There's also a paradox in play with your statement. More transparent, revealing systems allows one to hear more musical information, which is entirely independent of one's hearing acuity.
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Bernard
Well-known member
Actually Kedar, non-believers have a right to believe what they want, with my respect. I do not treat their principles or philosophies with contempt, sarcasm, or derision; I am a gentleman, after all
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Bernard,
Well said.
I think he's still learning how to play nice. Maybe one of these days he'll get IT.
Gordon
PS: May I humbly request that one of the moderators fire a warning shot across Mr. ******'s bow.
Well said.
I think he's still learning how to play nice. Maybe one of these days he'll get IT.
Gordon
PS: May I humbly request that one of the moderators fire a warning shot across Mr. ******'s bow.
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I don't know, Gordon. Maybe his ears aren't good enough. I mean, we haven't actually seen any measurements of his hearing or of his brain's ability to process those signals. Maybe his brain is just psychoacoustically telling him that his system sounds good because it measures so well. Maybe it sounds like crap and he is just fooling himself that it sounds good because he is so happy about saving all that money.
Seriously, though, I don't think anyone on this forum has a problem with those who value measurements and sound engineering principles over the more esoteric audio tweaks. What upsets people is when they come off as a holier-than-thou know-everything who belittles others for having a different opinion. I think RUR and JonFo are prime examples of more engineering-minded people who are always helpful, never condescending, and never confrontational. As a result, I think they are two of the most respected people on this forum. Kudos to them.
User211
Well-known member
Bernard, Kedar or Roberto - do these disks feel like they are resonating when the music is reasonably loud?
Shoot, my chair resonates like crazy @ LF if the music is reasonably loud. :music:
roberto
Well-known member
Rur, you are too much!��.
Justin, if I get closer to them, I do not hear anything. If I take the SMDs away, I loose air between the instruments, also the sense of 3D is not as it was with them. I get less understandiing of the piano player hands. With the SMD you can understand easy what the left is doing vs right. The overall image presentation is better. The size of the instruments gets better too.
Justin, if I get closer to them, I do not hear anything. If I take the SMDs away, I loose air between the instruments, also the sense of 3D is not as it was with them. I get less understandiing of the piano player hands. With the SMD you can understand easy what the left is doing vs right. The overall image presentation is better. The size of the instruments gets better too.
Bernard
Well-known member
I didn't think to see if they feel like they're resonating, but I expect that any vibrations detectable would be from air borne vibrations.
beanbag
Well-known member
Upon further consideration, I think you should not try to measure them after all. Based on other comments I have read about them, I have to conclude that they are quantum mechanical devices, where a measurement will perturb the system. In other words, if you poke or prod them, the magic will go away. I think the best way to get the intended effects is to close your eyes and BELIEVE.
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