Service Notice for Discontinued Products

[Rich]

Yeah Rich, foot in mouth on this one, you got me. I got screwed on this one by over promising -- even though I was the only one to pass the info on to you guys immediately when I got it AND worked with our sales department to extend some kind of loyalty offer.

As honest and sincere as I am about trying to help you guys out, some of our most loyal and long term customers, you always seem to find a way to turn me into the "villain." Congrats.

~J

You are correct, Justin. And I am sorry if I make you out to be the "villain." I believe I have said on more than one occasion that I do appreciate your efforts, and I try to put the blame for things where it belongs, primarily with upper management. Ultimately, you are in charge of marketing. You don't have complete knowledge about what is going on behind the scenes and your job is to put the most positive spin on things possible for the public. Because of that, a lot of what you say here is received with skepticism and distrust.

But in this particular instance, you did over-promise and under-deliver. So I guess I don't have a problem calling it for what it is. Obviously, there are more people than me that are upset by it. Nine months ago, you told us not to worry and that we would get notice of any discontinued support in advance. Today, Logos owners are finding out they can no longer obtain replacement panels. No spin. Just fact.

There have been many decisions made by those higher in the management chain than you which I and others disagree with. The communication from management regarding these changes has been very poor to nonexistent, which hasn't helped matters. And honestly, you constantly trying to put a positive spin on things doesn't necessarily help much either. But I know that you are just trying to do the best job you can within the corporate constraints that you have, and I do appreciate your attempts to communicate information to us. As Len said, it is nothing personal with you. You just get to be the outlet by which we express a lot of anger with decisions made by ML management.

 

[zaphod]

Justin - thank you for replying to my post.

Well it's wasn't "zero warning" especially since I warned against the situation 9 months ago...but I see your point. In this case, I was able to convince service to take a deposit and not the full amount to soften the financial burden because of the short notice. I'll put emphasis that you guys need more notice.

"more notice" or perhaps even some notice - while I'm not at all impressed by the three weeks notice, most of my post was about the model(s) with zero notice.

the deposit now pay later is great, in fact i phoned so fast that wasn't in place and they took my order before my deposit was down. I called later to offer a deposit but they kindly said - "no you're in the queue, don't worry."

Not to beat a dead horse, but again, 9 months ago you were given warning. AND AGAIN, I passed the info to you as soon as I had it and did everything I could to extend the time on payment so as to make it as easy as possible on everyone.

actually, in http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118611&postcount=500 you said

As far as which models we will still replace? For now, Rob tells me they can do all models, and that won't change for AT LEAST another 6 months. BUT, during that time, they will be evaluating that policy.

I will let everyone know ahead of time with any decisions about this policy, and I'll be sure to let YOU know as soon as I know.

Nine months ago you said that you would give us warning, but for some models there was no warning. You cannot turn around now and claim that statement was actually the warning. Sorry.

I would suggest picking up the phone and calling our SERVICE department, they are the only ones who can answer a question like that.

Nice. Not to beat my own dead horse, but if you said that warning would be given here and by you - should we now be regularly calling the SERVICE department for updates on availability? Of course not.

in a second post today you said:

Yeah Rich, foot in mouth on this one, you got me. I got screwed on this one by over promising

The issue at hand is the amount of warning given, in particular no notice before the fact of Logos panels no longer being available.. If you state that you overpromised, are you saying that you promised more warning than you were able to give?

If so, then how can you also say that you gave ample warning 9 month back?

I'm not trying to be argumentative or smart-*ssed, it's an honest confusion on my part. how can you say you promised more than you delivered and also say that you delivered it 9 months back?

In all honesty and good will, i am not in anyway trying to vilify you or anyone else. Truly. What I am trying to do is believe someone at their word but instead hearing the words be reinterpreted 9 months down the road.

Justin, for any and ALL offense or perceived anger from me I apologize.

I am not angry or trying to vilify, I am only trying to understand why no promised heads-up notice was given for some parts/panel EOA, what other models are near to extinction and what can be done to avoid them going that way without notice.

Perhaps text base messaging is failing us, perhaps I should call and apologize/discuss.

 

[-justin-]

Justin, for any and ALL offense or perceived anger from me I apologize.

I am not angry or trying to vilify, I am only trying to understand why no promised heads-up notice was given for some parts/panel EOA, what other models are near to extinction and what can be done to avoid them going that way without notice.

Perhaps text base messaging is failing us, perhaps I should call and apologize/discuss.

No need for an apology. This whole thread seems more drawn out than need be to begin with.

I'll continue to feed you the information when I get it, and attempt to get the info sooner if possible.

That's all I can offer guys.

Thanks,
~Justin

 

[Peter Soderberg]

To Gordon. It must have been quite awhile since we spoke directly as I have been with ML for coming up on 7 years, although I do talk to the boys at MIT as they are so close I can sneak over and steal some pizza once in a while and loan them the occasion speaker as they work on new things. I sold, owned and when at MIT, Bruce helped Gayle occasionally on projects, all before getting a job here, so have been wrapped up in ML for 20 years. Some of the dialogue is tough to sit quietly through so may have been a bit wound when I wrote my last post. Justin and myself must maintain as detached as possible so no matter how painful some dialogue is, we can draw the lessons and help straighten out misconceptions. Doesn't mean that it doesn't carry weight as this current thread certainly does, we just must let it continue or the site loses its strength.

 

[shakham]

I remember some notes up there about buying panels ahead of time (Rich I believe?)...

I was under the impression that buying extra panels and storing them isn't a good idea as they can still deteriorate and lose life.

Not the case?


I mean... I often buy 6 month supply of household stuff, but you can't do that with milk (for example) .

 

[MDSPHOTO]

My old pair of Sequel II's still sound good as they've seen light use only, and were in storage for a few years. Then I purchased my Summits. The Sequel II's coating is degrading, so the cabinetry needs stripping and refinishing. I was planning to use them for a basement HT system, though now I'm starting a secondary system for my office, and could use them there.

Do I spend the time refinishing the Sequel II cabinets, run them till they sound awful, then discard them? Do I sell them at a blow out price now? Or will someone somewhere outside of ML figure out how to refurbish these old panels, or install other models of still available panels in there place?

I'm in the same boat. I am morphing my 2 ch system into a HT set-up and was planning to put the S2s as the surrounds. Should I dump them or order the new panels for when they die?

I am catching the tail end of this thread, but what exactly do I get when I order new panels? Is it all the metal with the mylar or just the mylar?

50% up front and 50% months later seems steep & risky to me. What if they close up shop and I lose my 50%?

 

[Bernard]

Hey guys, if this thread continues in this vein (the non-Tim (MiTT) view), future ML products will be sold with the disclaimer, "Your grandchidren may not be able to buy parts for these speakers".

 

[MPS]

Hmm.. talk about shooting the messenger..

 

[robertawillisjr]

You are being seen as the villian because you keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.You first stated that you will give plenty of warning to the models being discontinued.Three weeks is a joke and an insult to our intelligence.You justify it by saying I warned you nine months ago.Why can Monolith III panels be had but I and II's cannot?? They are essentially the same thing,are they not.Are they the same dimensions and will a Monolith III panel fit into an original Monloith??

WHOA guys (not just you Horchem). LETS STOP BEATING THE MESSENGER.

CLS I and CLS II are not compatible. Jim Powers (as I recall) verbally told me this I thought about putting CLS II stators on the pair of CLS I's I owned. This is more than 10 years ago. I remember because I was a bit whiffed.

It is possible that this is the same case with the different versions of Monolith's and Quest/ReQuest.

Let's face it, that many of us own Model T's. I know that there are many mechanics that can be found to repair Model T's, but Ford motor company generally won't (unless it is for historical purposes).

We have old equipment that is too expensive to maintain without exorbitant cost. If we were willing to pay $3k + for a new panel, perhaps someone else would step forward.

If we keep this up, Justin and other ML folks won't visit (similar to Tonepub?). We can be ****ed and still treat each other with some sort of decorum, can't we?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Quotable quotes

Hi Len,

Love your phrase.

"Between a dog and a fire hydrant".

I will remember that and choose the appropriate situation to use that quote.

That's right up there with:

"If you don't like the answer, change the question" or,

if you are a government employee, which I am,

"No good deed goes unpunished".

Gordon

 

[TomD]

Wow - Been away for a while and return to this. My personal condolences for those who face the loss for their speakers. I guess it is just a matter of time for the rest of us. At some point support will end no matter which speaker you own.

I guess i understand the business logic. They may lose some customers but save more than they could make from the continued loyalty.

To the ML managers out there, if i may share an opinion; i think it is fair if you notify a potential customer that the panels will need replacement. I have to say, there was no hint of this when i purchased my speakers new from an authorized dealer. I understand you wanting to keep this under wraps, but really! i spent a significant amount of money (for me), which i may have reconsidered if i had known of their inevitable demise.

I am not blaming ML as they have no real obligation to inform their potential customers as it is a matter of let the buyer beware. It is just that this kind of failure is not anticipated when shopping around for speakers, especially with something that cost so much.

I have had my humble Bose 10.2s for over 20 years and never replaced a part. Replacing the panel for such a high-end item just never occurred to me.

BTW, interesting move on the part of Sanders to offer a $500 reduction on their goods in that other thread. ML - you need to get you marketing in order if you want to maintain an edge.

 

[amey01]

At some point support will end no matter which speaker you own.

NO - not at all! Most speakers don't contain consumable items like the panels. Add to that, most other speakers contain generic parts and can be serviced and/or supported by any old Jack.

NOT WITH ML. Their speakers contain parts that are:

* Consumable
* Proprietary

IE. The panels.

Personally, I don't care if I can't purchase a resistor or an IEC inlet or binding post or WHATEVER from ML.

So if support ends in that regard, I don't care. I can get that stuff anywhere.

But panels !!! You've got to be fu99ing kidding me!

 

[Len44]

Hi Len,

Love your phrase.

"Between a dog and a fire hydrant".

I will remember that and choose the appropriate situation to use that quote.

That's right up there with:

"If you don't like the answer, change the question" or,

if you are a government employee, which I am,

"No good deed goes unpunished".

Gordon

Or, "The reward for a job well done is no punishment..."

 

[TomD]

Adam - Thanks for pointing that out; i should have been clearer as i meant MLs. You are absolutely right about the other parts. Likely, with all the choices available other parts may even be improved.

 

[Rich]

I guess it is just a matter of time for the rest of us. At some point support will end no matter which speaker you own.

Yep, and it could happen a lot sooner than anyone thinks. When companies take a step like this that they know is going to be unpopular with a segment of their market, they generally take it in small steps, rather than going all the way to where they want to go in one fell swoop. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that ML will at some point in the next few years institute a policy where they don't service any speaker beyond the five year warranty. That way, they get out of the panel replacement business completely and can shut down that part of the factory remaining in Kansas, which would surely save them some costs. Wouldn't surprise me at all, at this point.

 

[User211]

Yep, and it could happen a lot sooner than anyone thinks. When companies take a step like this that they know is going to be unpopular with a segment of their market, they generally take it in small steps, rather than going all the way to where they want to go in one fell swoop. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that ML will at some point in the next few years institute a policy where they don't service any speaker beyond the five year warranty. That way, they get out of the panel replacement business completely and can shut down that part of the factory remaining in Kansas, which would surely save them some costs. Wouldn't surprise me at all, at this point.

OK I am going to have a poke at that Rich - I really do think you are being overly negative here. Doom and gloom - Martin Logan is faultering etc.

If you genuinely love the company & it's products - and I am sure you do - then surely the better approach is a more optimistic one. Spreading so much negative vibe is bound to rub off on other owners - and also ML's own employees. Now I am not saying they are perfect - no company is - nor am I saying they are beyond criticism, but I do believe the constant knocking is over the top.

In the words of Donald Sutherland in Kelly's Heroes: "Knock it off with them negative waves. Don't you dig how beautiful it is around here? Why can't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"

Well, the 2nd sentence of the quote isn't entirely appropriate here - but overall it gets the point across. Why am I quoting that? Because it's quoted on an album I'm enjoying at the moment and no other reason, really

 

[Rich]

OK I am going to have a poke at that Rich - I really do think you are being overly negative here. Doom and gloom - Martin Logan is faultering etc.

Hi Justin. It took you long enough to jump into this thread. Now, before you accuse me of being too negative or going over the top with my doom and gloom predictions, let's review some history. When we found out Martin Logan had decided to move production to Canada (not because they announced it, but because an insider spilled the beans), I was one of the first to suggest that they would probably start discontinuing support for older models. Chris brought up the question about whether replacement panels would still be available, and I replied:

I would be very surprised if replacement panels for the legacy speakers weren't phased out. Perhaps they will still offer replacements for the newer models, but even on those I would suspect the quality over the next couple of years.

If you have previous-gen ML that you want to keep for awhile, you may seriously want to consider ordering some replacement panels right now.

I said that long before Justin (the marketing director) even came on board the forum to try to calm down our "hysteria" and, in the process, confirmed that this would indeed be the case. During those conversations, I also warned that quality control was likely to drop, and some of the "old guard" that made ML what it was were likely to be pushed out. Soon after that we found out that ML decided to let go of Jim Power, one of the greatest customer service reps in the entire hifi industry.

So before you accuse me of being too negative and over the top with my predictions, please remember that I was accused of the same thing in that prior thread, but was dead-on correct about many of the things I predicted would come to pass. I'm not saying that I was right on everything I predicted, but many of the things I predicted have come to pass. Yes, my comments are negative. As I see it, many of the decisions being made by Martin Logan management are negative. I am simply basing my thoughts and predictions on what I see happening.

What is kind of humorous to me is how people on this forum constantly want to stick their heads in the sand about these events. When I make a negative prediction, I get told to shut up being so pessimistic, because I don't know what is going to happen in the future. Then, when it comes to pass and I complain about it, I get told to shut up and stop beating a dead horse because it is what it is and there is nothing we can do about it.

So I guess I am only supposed to comment with a happy face and my rose-colored glasses firmly in place and my eyes and ears closed. The Stepford Wife of the Martin Logan owner's club forum.

If you genuinely love the company & it's products - and I am sure you do - then surely the better approach is a more optimistic one.

Well see, there's the rub. I did truly love this company and its products at one time. That should be obvious, given how much I have invested in them and how many genuinely positive comments I made about them in my first few years on this forum. But it is clear to me that this company is no longer being run with the same vision that Gayle Sanders ran it with. Current management simply doesn't have the same attitude toward product quality or customer service that Gayle did. That is abundantly clear by decisions they have made in the last few years. So, as I have made clear in many posts in this thread, I have lost the love and respect for the brand that I once had. Simple as that.

It is hard to be optimistic in the face of negative choices by ML management hitting us in the face every few months. I just don't have a lot of optimism for the brand right now. Mind you, I am sure there are employees like Peter that have been with the company a long time and still carry on the mindset that Gayle used to instill, and I do feel for them. But ultimately, the company is in the hands of an investment holding company and decisions are being made to satisfy the bottom line more so than to maintain the integrity of the brand.

Spreading so much negative vibe is bound to rub off on other owners - and also ML's own employees.

Sorry, but I am not responsible for their feelings. I am not going to be muzzled in my opinions for fear that someone else is going to be bummed out by what I have to say. We are all adults here and each person can decide for themselves what to think.

 

[BobF]

Rich,
Maybe I am missing something as it has been a long work week but are you talking to User 211 or Justin,
Best,
Bob
Scratch this as I didn't realize User 211 was Justin and not the Justin from ML, as I said looong week.

 

[User211]

Actually, Rich, I was in it earlier making some – er – not entirely positive remarks myself. I guess it is the frequency and intensity of your posts on MLs “fall from grace” that ultimately made me think at the spur of the moment “for god’s sake Rich, chill out!!!”.

Do I really care what happens to ML? The only vested interest I have is one Martin Logan Descent subwoofer. Let’s face it – that isn’t worth a lot of money on the 2nd hand market – at least to me it isn’t. But somehow I feel some sort of connection with a company literally 1000s of miles away from me, with whose products I enjoyed intensely for two decades.

The fact is Gayle is long gone. ML has been bought out and will no longer be run with the same regard to the customer as before – rather far more regard to the shareholder. Therefore, with all due respect, it isn’t too difficult to realise that things are going to change with regards to support of the older models – and change in other areas too. Very possibly for the worse as far as the customer is concerned.

Human nature is essentially greedy, and I have seem worse events occur at my wife’s company (www.mulberry.com), when the very person who founded the business was voted out by the people he employed in the first place. An absolutely despicable act IMHO. Perhaps those events just seem worse as I got a blow by blow description of what was happening to him at the time, but hey.

I personally believe though bad things have and will happen WRT the customer, the brand and the business will remain viable and that a reasonable level of support will remain. The product is good and in some cases excellent (read CLX/Summit X etc). I think a lot of people will simply accept that there products may become unsupported after a period. It wouldn’t be the first time a company did that. Many simply will regard it as a fact of life – a facet of the modern age, perhaps?

I guess the point I am trying to make is really, the company isn’t a big evil force that has to be treated with disdain. The reality is that it is probably no worse in its current form than many others out there.

You may regard my attitude as rather blasé, and your definition of reasonable support may well differ from mine. OK I admit that the recent announcement was bordering on the fairly unreasonable – especially given the time of year when may will be blowing their budgets on simply getting through the Xmas period – never mind ordering new panels!

However, it would be nice to see you post at least something that comes across as positive. I know damn well you don’t feel like it – but perhaps suggesting how things could be improved in a positive manner many actually initiate positive action within ML itself. Some good ideas might even make it to the “fat cats” running the show and controlling ML at present.

Or maybe I’m just trying to be too damned optimistic!!! Possibly even hypocritical. I mean it isn't as if I've come across with many brilliant positive ideas Oh well...

 

[User211]

Scratch this as I didn't realize User 211 was Justin and not the Justin from ML, as I said looong week.

Yup - I am the original me. That Justin imposter came along much later...