Service Notice for Discontinued Products

[shakham]

Recent Bose Customer Service experience: I own their noise cancelling head phones (along with some killer Beyer T1's). The headphones broke, but the model was discontinued and replaced with a new model. I contacted Bose asking for a replacement part. They said they don't stock any old parts and don't bother fixing old headphones. But for $100 they sent me a new pair! (New ones are about $300.) Not cheap, but I did not feel ripped off either.

I can add to that. My outdoor speakers are Bose 251 (or something like that). Hired someone to bring wiring indoors to outdoors. Thing was he dropped one of the speakers...dented the grill and cracked the box...and didn't tell me. I was very annoyed when I saw it (days later).

I was browsing through a Bose store (wife shopping i was bored) and told them the story. They said just bring it in and they will swap it out....and they did no questions asked. I was duly impressed.

Clearly their products have serious margin on them for them to be able to do that, but what do you think we pay for?

 

[shakham]

Our sales team are the only ones who can answer that, and they request you call in and speak with them directly: 785-749-0133

~J

That's cool Justin...I'll give them a buzz...thanks for the reply and to be honest thanks for ML not hiding .

 

[Rich]

. . . Where I differ from some of you is that I don't expect any company to deliver that ad infinitum because I understand the cost constraints associated with it when your talking about a publicly held $50M+ level business. Believe it or not, it is actually easier to accomodate if you are a privately held $15-20M business. I can go into the economics if you want, but it isn't terribly interesting.

Tim, I guess I am just curious where you stand on this now that Peter has enlightened us some on the size of their business. Sounds like ML is a private company much closer to the $15-$20 million sales range, rather than a public company in the $50 million plus sales range as you were guessing. By your logic, it sounds like the economics could support providing this kind of customer support like other high-end companies do (and like Martin Logan used to do).

Peter tries to make distinctions between their business and the business of Soundlabs, ARC, CJ, Roger Sanders, etc., but honestly, I am not buying it. Particularly, Soundlabs, Roger Sanders, and Magnepan all produce similar types of products (high end planar speakers) and all provide support for all of their legacy models. Martin Logan used to provide such support, but now say they can't do so. Although they try to say that that the reason is really a lack of availability of parts, I think it is pretty clear to most that this is simply a cost-cutting move. They have decided that the economic savings of discontinuing such support are more important than their reputation for customer service.

 

[Lite]

Recent Bose Customer Service experience: I own their noise cancelling head phones (along with some killer Beyer T1's). The headphones broke, but the model was discontinued and replaced with a new model. I contacted Bose asking for a replacement part. They said they don't stock any old parts and don't bother fixing old headphones. But for $100 they sent me a new pair! (New ones are about $300.) Not cheap, but I did not feel ripped off either.

When it comes to maintaining a customer relationship it is probably easier and cheaper to offer reasonably priced upgrade paths that keep you paying them over time. An example would be if they offered you an upgrade path of 25 to 50% off of retail for equipment as they retire it... You'd have customers that grumble, but likely they'd be far less angry.

On the other hand, as someone who is brand new to even mid-fi (I've owned my ML Sources for less than a week mind you...) I never entered into this expecting to get more than 10 years of life out of them at the very outside. All I know is that I've lusted after the ML's for years, the Sources are just now affordable to me, and the first time I sat down to listen to them I was grinning from ear to ear... And then I had to go to dinner with my wife. When I mentioned I was considering buying some speakers she asked if she could come listen. When we came around to listening to the ML Sources, she too started grinning from ear-to-ear.

As for what kept me from considering other brands such as Magnepans... (Which I am also fond of.) The metal grills and the ability to remove the covers from the bottom half of the Sources. We have 3 cats, and 1 of them used my wife's ex-husbands Accoustats as a climbing toy. The Sources lasted all of 3 hours in the house before that very same cat tried to eat one of the speaker grills...

Anyway, I find it interesting that people are throwing around comparisons of what other companies can or can't do in regards to supporting their legacy product lines over extended (Greater than 10 years) periods of time by making assumptions regarding A) Martin Logan's cost to continue to stock/build these parts, B) What Martin Logan's actual current bottom line is, and C) What one's ability is to cut costs and increase profitability has to do with whether or not one is an audiophile or haven't had a previous job building high-end boutique speakers... (Which strikes me as really limiting one's talent pool.)

Yes ML's line has been slipping downscale in some areas, but last I checked they still sold a pair of $23k (List) speakers as well. Their more entry level designs enable them to reach a broader audience (See: Increase sales, keep people in jobs...) and it allows them to market and sell speaker lines that don't quite take up as much physical room to use.

 

[Peter Soderberg]

I am going to jump back in, mostly so i can withdraw. To Rich, I did not mean to come across as attacking you directly as my comments where based on the overall mood of the threads. To the moderator, the reason Justin and I are on the site is to provide a factual backbone so certain postulation can be shortened, getting everyone back on track and to not waste time. I have in my estimation, overreacted on this last matter and in review not been as specific as i should have been in my comments. My comment on the Innersound debacle had to do with how Roger was treated or sucked into it, not that he hasn't done the honorable thing taking care of Innersound goods. That was an unintended misdirect. My comments are about looking forward in time and the reality that might rise up in any small companies future. As to the amount of money we make versus an ability to keep servicing, the decision is not simply based on yearly sales.
All of the readers have to know that this is a tough reality and it is what it is. Since long service times are something i have used in my trainings and is a matter of pride for all of us at ML, emotion is a part of the decision process, making this harder.
The critical message to all is to communicate with us. Without customers, we have nothing and we know that.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Peter,

Last time we spoke, you were with MIT. Am glad you are now with ML. You were a "stand up" person with MIT and, I'm confident, you will bring the same level of passion (within whatever corporate boundaries exist) with ML.

I find the conversation and exchange of views enlightening. I admire the tenacity of my friend Rich, the real world perspective of my friend Tim, others who have contributed, and your efforts "to bridge the gap" between us end users and Shoreview.

To underscore the obvious, ML, like other boutique hi end brands, continues to exist as a result of the support offered for past and present customers. Once that support erodes, one can fully expect a decline in sales in the upper end products, and in the worst case, cessation of the entire product line.

In closing, I have to tell all my favorite personal story about customer service. Numerous years ago when I was still backpacking in the Wind River Mountain Range in western Wyoming, I had a very expensive pair of Zeiss binoculars. They were marketed as "water resistant". They ended up in a lake. I retrieved the binocs but they obviously suffered water damage. I contacted Zeiss regarding possible repairs. They sent me a brand new pair at no cost.

GG

 

[Len44]

Thanks Gordon.

Well Said!

 

[Rich]

I am going to jump back in, mostly so i can withdraw. To Rich, I did not mean to come across as attacking you directly as my comments where based on the overall mood of the threads.

Thanks, Peter. I appreciate that. Don't worry, I have a pretty thick skin. Please understand that I value the input from you and Justin, no matter how harsh and skeptical I may sound. Obviously, I have a deep love for the ML brand or I wouldn't still be engaging in these discussions. Since we love the brand, we do get emotional about major changes to the management style of the company. I think my previous posts makes that painfully clear.

My comment on the Innersound debacle had to do with how Roger was treated or sucked into it, not that he hasn't done the honorable thing taking care of Innersound goods. That was an unintended misdirect. My comments are about looking forward in time and the reality that might rise up in any small companies future.

Ok. Understood. I would still point to Roger as an example of how a company like Martin Logan should consider running the high-end side of their business. Lifetime warranty. Full support of every product ever made. Unquestionable Integrity. If someone is going to pay 20 grand or more for a pair of speakers, I think that is the least they should expect.

As to the amount of money we make versus an ability to keep servicing, the decision is not simply based on yearly sales.

I understand that. I think you misunderstand where that whole argument arose from. Tim was simply trying to make the case that it was easier in a lot of ways for a smaller, more nimble company to offer unlimited product support than it was for a larger company with more corporate constraints. He was assuming you were a larger company in terms of sales and was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt there. Turns out he was wrong. Anyway, that's where the whole argument came into being about your potential sales numbers.

All of the readers have to know that this is a tough reality and it is what it is. Since long service times are something i have used in my trainings and is a matter of pride for all of us at ML, emotion is a part of the decision process, making this harder.

I think we all understand that. It was also a tough reality to fire Jim Power and to move production from Kansas, and that was also very emotional for you guys, I am sure. But ultimately, the "it is what it is" argument doesn't cut it for me. I am just one customer, but have been a repeat customer many times over the past ten years. For me, and I only speak for myself, the decisions made by those running Martin Logan over the last few years have utterly changed my perception of the company, and I couldn't possibly give them another dime of my money at this point. I am not saying that to hurt your feelings. I am saying it because it is true and I think current management needs to understand that it is probably true for a lot of people besides myself. There are repercussions to every decision management makes. The brand's reputation is suffering among some former die-hard Martin Logan fans. That's the bottom line.

 

[Rich]

I admire the tenacity of my friend Rich,

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Thanks Gordon.

Well Said!

Agreed.

 

[Len44]

I think we all understand that. It was also a tough reality to fire Jim Power and to move production from Kansas, and that was also very emotional for you guys, I am sure. But ultimately, the "it is what it is" argument doesn't cut it for me. I am just one customer, but have been a repeat customer many times over the past ten years. For me, and I only speak for myself, the decisions made by those running Martin Logan over the last few years have utterly changed my perception of the company, and I couldn't possibly give them another dime of my money at this point. I am not saying that to hurt your feelings. I am saying it because it is true and I think current management needs to understand that it is probably true for a lot of people besides myself. There are repercussions to every decision management makes. The brand's reputation is suffering among some former die-hard Martin Logan fans. That's the bottom line.

Thanks, Rich (Emphasis added above). I think this pretty well capsulizes the situation for many of us. It certainly nails it for me. Progressing from the Aeon i to the Ascent i to Summits, I have been very carefully considering the CLX. But the recent upheaval with Martin Logan has put those plans on an indefinite pause.

Peter / Justin -- I sincerely, sincerely hope that strong attention is paid to the above comments. We really do want Martin Logan to thrive. Rich has a gem of an idea with the option for treating high end product line separately from the rest of the line, if that is what it takes to make things more viable. I would echo that that current Martin Logan leadership seems absolutely clueless (or uncaring) regarding the impact of many of their decisions over the past several months. Perhaps the recent hiring of Peter will help in that regard, although we will have to wait and see...

I certainly agree with Peter's comment that communication is clearly needed -- but would add that it is a two-way street -- and it needs to be timely.

 

[zaphod]

Justin -

You've been following and replying to this thread and I'd really like an answer to a couple of related questions.

It was stated (by you) that ample warning would be given before panels/parts became unavailable on older speaker lines and we were not to worry. However ample has turned out to mean three weeks for many panels and in the case of the Logos, no warning at all.

1. What if anything will be done to avoid another "zero warning" situation for panel/parts availability?

Somewhere between the heads up six months ago that panels would not be available forever (at which point panels were assumedly still available), and three days back when it was discovered that Logos panels were not available at all, parts for the panel on the Logos started to become in short supply and then non-existant.

2. When the panels became a finite resource, why was no warning given?

You asked us to trust you that we would not be left high and dry, that warning would be given, but that did not turn out to be true.

3. As warning was not given before panels were no longer available can we get reasonable estimates for other older lines such as the script? We have heard that panels for the CLS II will continue to be available for the next 10 years - is this true and is a timeline also available for other panels?


Six months back I asked similar questions in the forums and they went unanswered aside from vague assurances, please follow up this time as this is the sort of communication which would avoid much of the distress and heated arguments that have ensued this week.

Thank you very much, and take care.

 

[Rich]

It was stated (by you) that ample warning would be given before panels/parts became unavailable on older speaker lines and we were not to worry. However ample has turned out to mean three weeks for many panels and in the case of the Logos, no warning at all.

Actually, what he said was:

As far as which models we will still replace? For now, Rob tells me they can do all models, and that won't change for AT LEAST another 6 months. BUT, during that time, they will be evaluating that policy.

I will let everyone know ahead of time with any decisions about this policy, and I'll be sure to let YOU know as soon as I know.

(emphasis mine)

Apparently, "ahead of time" means three weeks ahead of time for most models, and after panels are no longer available for others.

When this discussion was going on nine months ago, I made the suggestion that people should consider going ahead and buying their replacement panels ahead of time and storing them until needed. I was pretty well lambasted for making such a stupid suggestion, with all kinds of reasons thrown out why this was such a bad idea and how I was over-reacting. Looks like maybe it wasn't such a stupid suggestion, at least if you are a Logos owner.

 

[-justin-]

It was stated (by you) that ample warning would be given before panels/parts became unavailable on older speaker lines and we were not to worry. However ample has turned out to mean three weeks for many panels and in the case of the Logos, no warning at all.

Yes, I was as ****ed as you that A) it took so long to determine and B) I got such a short notice.

1. What if anything will be done to avoid another "zero warning" situation for panel/parts availability?

Well it's wasn't "zero warning" especially since I warned against the situation 9 months ago...but I see your point. In this case, I was able to convince service to take a deposit and not the full amount to soften the financial burden because of the short notice. I'll put emphasis that you guys need more notice.

2. When the panels became a finite resource, why was no warning given? You asked us to trust you that we would not be left high and dry, that warning would be given, but that did not turn out to be true.

Not to beat a dead horse, but again, 9 months ago you were given warning. AND AGAIN, I passed the info to you as soon as I had it and did everything I could to extend the time on payment so as to make it as easy as possible on everyone.

3. As warning was not given before panels were no longer available can we get reasonable estimates for other older lines such as the script? We have heard that panels for the CLS II will continue to be available for the next 10 years - is this true and is a timeline also available for other panels?

I would suggest picking up the phone and calling our SERVICE department, they are the only ones who can answer a question like that.

~J

 

[-justin-]

Apparently, "ahead of time" means three weeks ahead of time for most models, and after panels are no longer available for others.
.

Yeah Rich, foot in mouth on this one, you got me. I got screwed on this one by over promising -- even though I was the only one to pass the info on to you guys immediately when I got it AND worked with our sales department to extend some kind of loyalty offer.

As honest and sincere as I am about trying to help you guys out, some of our most loyal and long term customers, you always seem to find a way to turn me into the "villain." Congrats.

~J

 

[Horchem1972]

Yeah Rich, foot in mouth on this one, you got me. I got screwed on this one by over promising -- even though I was the only one to pass the info on to you guys immediately when I got it AND worked with our sales department to extend some kind of loyalty offer.

As honest and sincere as I am about trying to help you guys out, some of our most loyal and long term customers, you always seem to find a way to turn me into the "villain." Congrats.

~J

You are being seen as the villian because you keep talking out of both sides of your mouth.You first stated that you will give plenty of warning to the models being discontinued.Three weeks is a joke and an insult to our intelligence.You justify it by saying I warned you nine months ago.Why can Monolith III panels be had but I and II's cannot?? They are essentially the same thing,are they not.Are they the same dimensions and will a Monolith III panel fit into an original Monloith??

 

[Horchem1972]

Very curious.I just spoke with someone at Martin Logan and they seem to know nothing about the Panels being discontinued for the Monolith I and II's.How can we trust what is being said Justin when even your own staff does not have the whole story or is out of the loop?? I was told to wait while I was transferred and then received a busy signal.I called back and was given an answering machine for the service department.Seems a little funny to me.

 

[C.A.P]

As honest and sincere as I am about trying to help you guys out, some of our most loyal and long term customers, you always seem to find a way to turn me into the "villain." Congrats.

~J

Again I thank you for the real time heads up . some people live life "with one foot in yesterday and one in tomorrow and are pi$$in all over today"

Do not take the voice of the loudest individual in a crowed to always be the best example of the whole !

 

[-justin-]

Very curious.I just spoke with someone at Martin Logan and they seem to know nothing about the Panels being discontinued for the Monolith I and II's.How can we trust what is being saidJjustin when even your own staff does not have the whole story or is out of the loop?? I was told to wait while I was transferred and then received a busy signal.I called back and was given an answering machine for the service department.Seems a little funny to me.

Funny how? Like "ha ha" funny, or funny like a clown?

You need to talk with Melodie or Dana in the Service department. Don't worry, if you leave a message they WILL call you back, they are good cats.

~J

 

[-justin-]

Again I thank you for the real time heads up . some people live life "with one foot in yesterday and one in tomorrow and are pi$$in all over today"

Do not take the voice of the loudest individual in a crowed to always be the best example of the whole !

Much appreciated! :music:

~J

 

[Len44]

Yeah Rich, foot in mouth on this one, you got me. I got screwed on this one by over promising -- even though I was the only one to pass the info on to you guys immediately when I got it AND worked with our sales department to extend some kind of loyalty offer.

As honest and sincere as I am about trying to help you guys out, some of our most loyal and long term customers, you always seem to find a way to turn me into the "villain." Congrats.

~J

Hey Justin, I don't think it is anything personal. There is a LOT of frustration with Martin Logan regarding some questionable / awful / stupid moves made by ML "leadership" over the past several months, and you (lucky guy) get to be the point man striving to explain / justify / put the best face on these changes in direction. Martin Logan owners -- especially those on this forum -- I have found to be insightful, brilliant, and articulate, and quick to discern changes, including those not necessarily specified. Which is to say not much will slide by this group, and, given the collective experience over the past several months, everyone's BS meters are pegged to the "fully suspicious" position.

Tough position in which to find oneself, but being "between a dog and a fire hydrant" is probably why you get the big bucks...