Joey_V
Well-known member
There have been many who say it is better than the Alexia.
OK! Esoteric K1 is the winner. ==• now we need to move to the speaker!!!!!}{[]>
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There have been many who say it is better than the Alexia.
If you haven't listened and you have a chance do so. Re: the order. I don't consider 6 figure speakers in the mix. I listen and use them as comparisons. I believe the Mac arrays are google bucks. I have also listened to summit x & the montis in this whirlwind tour.
Since you have heard the Strads let me try to compare. Now I am a panel bigot so lets start there. The strad was more concussive in some areas as a good cone will be. But I think the Achilles heel of the Maggie's has always been bass. And I will say - that is the part that drew me in. Panel bass is so different than cone bass. I happen to like what I hear from the panel for my application. The Strads played strings very silky smooth - best I have heard. Strings sounded great on the maggie but the quartet i had to show that off was a real crap recording so it is tough for me to a/b that. It is my opinion that if you have space these 20.7s are an option. You know the 'meat on the bones' you described the Strads with? I think the 20.7 brings that....but, has enormous soundstage and incredibly accurate scale. I found them just plain fun to listen to. I kept wanting to put more music in to see what ELSE was new!! The Strads were the bar for me when I went to listen to these. And as much as I really loved those Strads ( listened to them twice - I don't do that) I liked these better because of their soundscapes they produced. I absolutely love depth - and these things give depth like no other speaker I have personally heard. So i like that type of musical presentation. A stupid example: we put on this junk Simon and garfunkel cd from around 1980...cd creation in its infancy - sound should be flat as a pancake and I recall it to be that way. These create depth of vocal which helps separate out the instruments as well. Some might claim this to be artificial - I just happen to like it when a crap recording somehow sounds better!! Amp wise - no doubt in my mind that they would like as much as you can give them. The boulder monos were only 200 into 4 ohm. We choked them once on a huge dynamic swing in swan lake. But- the speaker didn't crack at all. I only noted this because I had heard reviewers say they need juice if you really want to ramp them up and that is correct.
Well my two cents anyway.
Joey_V
Well-known member
Tim
I really appreciate your auditioning of these fine speakers and I am very glad you chose to post your thoughts on these.
As much of a panel guy I have been, there are things that I feel really well designed box speakers do that panels can't match. For one, I am not really a big fan of the back wave distortion. The sound does seem more open with panels, but that back wave distortion was never intended on the original recording and is 100% distortion... this was a conversation I had with Richard Vandersteen when I met him couple months ago.
The back wave will have some effect on the listening spot, it will create a delayed wave that is heard which may cause a sensation that the stage or instruments have more volume than otherwise specified on the recording.
That's fine and I do enjoy that sound... panels also have the ability to be more cohesive and time/phase coherent than box speakers as well... and couple that "dimensionality" with coherence, and you get a very good sound.
That said, the Strads for me have that panel type coherence (not sure if its because of that flat baffle) but with a very palpable and meaty midrange and bass with balls and as dense as bones... though perhaps not with the dimensionality as panels (as you described).
Best compromise??
Get both!!! HAHAHA
I really appreciate your auditioning of these fine speakers and I am very glad you chose to post your thoughts on these.
As much of a panel guy I have been, there are things that I feel really well designed box speakers do that panels can't match. For one, I am not really a big fan of the back wave distortion. The sound does seem more open with panels, but that back wave distortion was never intended on the original recording and is 100% distortion... this was a conversation I had with Richard Vandersteen when I met him couple months ago.
The back wave will have some effect on the listening spot, it will create a delayed wave that is heard which may cause a sensation that the stage or instruments have more volume than otherwise specified on the recording.
That's fine and I do enjoy that sound... panels also have the ability to be more cohesive and time/phase coherent than box speakers as well... and couple that "dimensionality" with coherence, and you get a very good sound.
That said, the Strads for me have that panel type coherence (not sure if its because of that flat baffle) but with a very palpable and meaty midrange and bass with balls and as dense as bones... though perhaps not with the dimensionality as panels (as you described).
Best compromise??
Get both!!! HAHAHA
The Analysis and Vandy distributor in the UK was the same. We ABed Vandy in his house after the Analysis and both were very disappointed. He wanted to sell the Vandy actually, because he wanted to keep the Analysis for himself.
That back wave actually makes the sound more real. When I go to concerts I close my eyes every now and then to see what system am I listening to. For baroque, vocals, and general ambience it is always a panel. For orchestral 3d it is the datasat dirac Auro 3d system, for brass it is the Tune Audio Anima
That back wave actually makes the sound more real. When I go to concerts I close my eyes every now and then to see what system am I listening to. For baroque, vocals, and general ambience it is always a panel. For orchestral 3d it is the datasat dirac Auro 3d system, for brass it is the Tune Audio Anima
I agree with what you say about the Strads. They are one of the best if not the best box speaker I have heard.
I know bonzo loves the analysis omegas. Just difficult to audition and built an ocean away. I do know what I like though and I like the back wave personally. But I liked the Strads as well. You describe them perfectly.
Joey_V
Well-known member
Yep... I'm not arguing that the backwave is entirely bad, it's just a different presentation . Get the backwave just right and you have a fantastic sound. Get it wrong and it smears the stage.
Regarding Vandersteen... Heard his 5 Carbons. They sound good, but nothing like the Strads.
Regarding Vandersteen... Heard his 5 Carbons. They sound good, but nothing like the Strads.
Joey_V
Well-known member
I agree with you there.
And how many times have I mentioned that I'm glad you auditioned AND posted on all these speakers????
Thumbs up brotherman!
Tim, they are in New York. And the distributor is in Jersey
No problemo!! I figure I would throw in my opinion as I know it is difficult to make these decisions. Nice to get another opinion whether it be positive or negative. It's been a blast!!
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
It's bigger and does sound great to me. New they are $68 to $70K, I think last time I checked. I know a guy who went to them from WP8's and said they were an amazing step up. I heard them at his home and have to agree. Since my current music room is only 14.5' X 15.5', I'll stick with my WP8's - it's not like I'm suffering! If I ever get a larger media room, I'll definitely upgrade to something similar to the capabilities of the Maxx 3's, if not the Maxx 3's. Rockports are also on my list of want to haves.
Joey_V
Well-known member
Maxx3 in my room might be too much. 17x15. But i am measuring out my room to see if I can finagle them in there. Would be a great rig.
You mention Rockports... Avior vs Strads, I preferred the Strads. But the Avior is very musical sounding. Coherent sound.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
A bit self serving from Richard I expect. And not consistent with what one hears in a concert hall. Also, somewhat unprofessional in my view.
I heard similar comments from Terry Menacher of Overture Audio, a man I greatly respect, regarding the MBL's.
Too bad really. They don't need to and shouldn't go there.
A cage match between Vandersteen and Siegfried Linkwitz might be entertaining.;-)
Next best thing:
Lengthy, but compare Vandersteen's approach to Kevin Voecks (Snell, now Harman's Technology Director) and Andrew Jones (KEF and now Pioneer/TAD).
Ha... exactly.... I am guessing Jim Winey and Gayle Sanders and Roger Sanders would disagree with Mr. Vandersteen?? I use the Mr. Roberto logic....'use your ears'... if you likey - it good... if you no likey .... it bad....
Joey_V
Well-known member
Ha... exactly.... I am guessing Jim Winey and Gayle Sanders and Roger Sanders would disagree with Mr. Vandersteen?? I use the Mr. Roberto logic....'use your ears'... if you likey - it good... if you no likey .... it bad....
Richard Vandersteen disagreed with many of the speakers I have on my list. He put on a good argument for his speakers and some of the ideas I bought and some I had or have a different opinion on.
Regarding backwave, Im split. I know for sure the back wave is not needed for great sound but the presence of one does not mean it can't sound good either.
Basically:
Good sound can be had without the backwave.
But also...
Good sound can be had with the backwave.
Joey_V
Well-known member
You speak of unprofessionalism... I must bring up that it is the same vein that I am beginning to really get ticked off with the local Wilson dealer. I can point to a salesman or two who are just plain passive aggressive and uncalled for. When Vandersteen was new to their dealership, it was just "meh ok" according to him. Then all of a sudden Richard came to meet and greet and now he changes his tune "they're great!"
I called him out on but it was just a battle of words and I let it go, it was a pointless argument talking to a salesman who couldn't really afford the gear he was preaching. ****ed me off.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Unfortunately, this is way too common in the hi end retail sales world. My way / highway attitude.
And one wonders why the younger generation can't "connect" with our hobby. DUH!
roberto
Well-known member
Hola Joey and Kids...I'm going to chime in a Little bit. We all know that the sound is logarithmic, this means, nobody can actually tell the behavior of any component or speaker in your own place, until you try it there!
We all know too, that there are many good sounding stuff out there. But concerning to a specific design or a specific theories, or what it is the best, then, we have the whole world. It is a broad road. We have to stick of what we listen and with our own liking. What I do like, you might not! or it could be your liking too.
Go to unplugged live music, next to you, try to listen a violin, or a Spanish guitar, a piano, a trumpet, a clarinet, a bass playing about three to four meters away of you...listen to the deepest notes, or go to a big church, where there is a big organ. A cello, or any musical instrument of your taste...and try to emulate that sound in your system. On the other hand, voices are great for this kind of test. Listen to a Choir, or a small group of voices...and you will find that we are still in dippers, no matter what speakers at any price, or system at any price, will reproduce the quality of the unplugged live music.
But we are getting closer. This is a good thing. Everyday is a research for new types of electronics or any media, to reproduce quality, not just mambo jambo. Our ears are the most delicate precision instrument! Trust in them. You can not go wrong on this.
You can find better golden ears than yours, but this does not mean anything. You are the one who is going to enjoy your system, and also, you are the one who is paying for it too. There are so many parameters in the design of a quality product, that you can not have all, and no matter the cost.
So, if you are happy with your goods, then enjoy them, if you are not, change the ones that you don't like. My point is: Let's enjoy what we have, and also what we like!!! Then we start to loving it! Music is art! Music moves thousands of people. Music nourishes my Spirit. Music makes me a better human being. Music makes you a better human being! Music is one of the most brilliant, dedicated, inventive, skillful, artful, imaginative, discriminating, creative, graceful, talented, accomplished, aesthetic, aesthetically pleasing, well-turned, well-proportioned, well-executed, well-wrought, pleasing, selective, sublime, judicious, ideal, well-balanced, cultured, tasteful, exquisite, sensitive, fine, elegant, harmonious, grand, elevated, noble, beautiful, of all arts. Happy listening!
We all know too, that there are many good sounding stuff out there. But concerning to a specific design or a specific theories, or what it is the best, then, we have the whole world. It is a broad road. We have to stick of what we listen and with our own liking. What I do like, you might not! or it could be your liking too.
Go to unplugged live music, next to you, try to listen a violin, or a Spanish guitar, a piano, a trumpet, a clarinet, a bass playing about three to four meters away of you...listen to the deepest notes, or go to a big church, where there is a big organ. A cello, or any musical instrument of your taste...and try to emulate that sound in your system. On the other hand, voices are great for this kind of test. Listen to a Choir, or a small group of voices...and you will find that we are still in dippers, no matter what speakers at any price, or system at any price, will reproduce the quality of the unplugged live music.
But we are getting closer. This is a good thing. Everyday is a research for new types of electronics or any media, to reproduce quality, not just mambo jambo. Our ears are the most delicate precision instrument! Trust in them. You can not go wrong on this.
You can find better golden ears than yours, but this does not mean anything. You are the one who is going to enjoy your system, and also, you are the one who is paying for it too. There are so many parameters in the design of a quality product, that you can not have all, and no matter the cost.
So, if you are happy with your goods, then enjoy them, if you are not, change the ones that you don't like. My point is: Let's enjoy what we have, and also what we like!!! Then we start to loving it! Music is art! Music moves thousands of people. Music nourishes my Spirit. Music makes me a better human being. Music makes you a better human being! Music is one of the most brilliant, dedicated, inventive, skillful, artful, imaginative, discriminating, creative, graceful, talented, accomplished, aesthetic, aesthetically pleasing, well-turned, well-proportioned, well-executed, well-wrought, pleasing, selective, sublime, judicious, ideal, well-balanced, cultured, tasteful, exquisite, sensitive, fine, elegant, harmonious, grand, elevated, noble, beautiful, of all arts. Happy listening!
slowGEEZR
Well-known member
That's sad. A good dealer is very helpful. I recommend Casey, owner of ne plus ultra, here in Austin.
MiTT
Super User
Awesome post Roberto, you have stated what I would like to say if I were as eloquent as you my friend. When I was in seminary many years ago (yes, believe it or not I spent 2 years in a monastic life studying for the priesthood - but that's another story), I asked one of my Theology professors if he really felt there were only one path to God and his reply was "Certainly not! There are as many paths are there are people walking them." We too often forget in this audio "Religion" we practice, that there are a similar number of paths here as well.
